Reloading for a 125 year old Winchester 1894 in 30-WCF

[Dean2]

Okay, must be because this is a long range forum but the advice you are getting is a little short on detail. You have a Winchester 1894 chambered in 30 WCF (precursor name to 30-30) that was made in 1895. The 30-30 was always designed to be a smokeless powder cartridge. The only reason they went from 30 WCF to 30-30 was to fit the common naming conventions of the day for Black powder. That and there were still lots of old timers that loaded the 30-30 with black powder, which produces lower pressure but needs a lot more cleaning, becasue that was the only powder they could buy.

1895 was the first year of production for the model 1894 in 30 WCF thus your rifle should have a fair amount of collector value if it is in good, untouched condition. Whatever you do, do not refinish the wood or metal. When the model 1894 was first released the gun was chambered in 32-40 and 38-55, both old black powder rounds, despite the fact the model 94 action was specifcally designed for smokeless cartridges at much higher pressures than the Winchester 1992 action.. None of these had Nickel Steel barrels in 1894 and few in 1895 unless special ordered, and were not marked with the Nickel Steel, NS or NS proof marks. In the 38-55 and 32-40 even some of the barrels made into the 1900s were not Nickle Steel. From the first release of the 30 WCF, all of their barrels were made in Nickle Steel, as were all 32 Specials, the smokelss version of the 32-40, when they came out about 6 years later. If you don't see that on the barrel, it is probably under the forearm where it should be marked NS right near the receiver, as will the proof mark. The reason the 30 WCF was delayed was due to issues machining the much tougher Nickle Steel barrels, which was also why Winchester kept issuing 32-40 and 38-55 for so long without the NS barrels.

Since you have had the gun checked out by a good gunsmith it should be safe to shoot. That said, unless you really want to use it, there really is not much upside to shooting it, especially if it is in highly collectable condition. That issue aside, if you do want to shoot it, do NOT use Trailboss, it does not make low pressure loads in the 30-30; even at only 1100 fps they make almost 29,000 CUP of pressure . Trail Boss behaves very differently in straight wall or nearly straight wall cartridges. Have a look at the high pressures it produces in the 45-70, whereas in a bottle neck cartridge it produces far lower pressure.You are far better off with 4198, 15 grain starting load with a 170 grain bullet will give you about 1400 fps or 17 grains of H4895 for about 1350 fps. Both of these produce very mild pressures of about 15,000 CUP, well within the pressure limits of even the Black powder 1894s.. A 170 grain bullet at 1400 fps means you can use cast or jacketed bullets, they will kill fine and both are very easy on the gun.

I have a couple of 1894s made in 1895 and 1896 and despite them being highly collectable I still shoot and hunt with them so I don't actually take my own advice because I am a firm believer that guns are made to be shot, not just stuck in a display case. Let us know how you make out.

 

[rewiltshire]

I also have one made in 1895. Grandson wanted to use it a his deer rifle. I told him "No Way". We cleaned and re lubed it (total strip) and put it all back together. Now he know the inner workings of a 1894 Winchester and how to strip and repair the '94 (1956 model) that I gave him out of my collection. The 1895 model is a wall hanger - conversation piece, not a shooter. But I sure wish that sucker could talk!

 

[Winkfish]

Here she is, It would be really interesting to know all the places this rifle has been over the years. We have a PRS event this weekend so I hope early next week I can get a couple rounds loaded up.

 

[Dean2]

For its age it is in pretty good shape. I expanded the pictures and even the screw slots aren't mangled so whoever had it was careful taking it apart.. I would definitely get a Letter from the Cody Museum on the gun. For 75 bucks you often get a fair amount of info, might even get a starting point to try and trace the guns history, and the letter just adds to the collector interest. I have an 1894 made in 1896 in 38-55 that I have the whole history from the original owner and what he used it for and the original owner gave it to my father in 1955 or 56, It really is cool to know the history of a gun.

Here is the story just for interest sake:

The gun was bought new by Pop Day in 1897. The Scott and Lesson line, that ran between Edmonton and Calgary, had been held up August 3, 1886 and after that all of the coach lines hired guards or armed their drivers. Pop Day was hired late 1889 and after making pretty good money decided he wanted a new gun with repeater capability, rather than the single shot issued by the company. Thus he bought this gun and he used it for many years as his main rifle for guarding the Stage from Lethbridge to Fort MacLeod Alberta, and then Clarsholm. Clarsholm was the terminus of the Railhead that ran from Edmonton to Calgary and was named so by one of the superintendents for his wife Clara.

Before the turn of the century, the Macleod Trail was the region's primary North/South transportation route. In 1891 the Calgary and Edmonton Railway Line was extended to Claresholm. The town was located within a topographical low point to ensure that railway cars could not roll away. The next year, the Canadian Pacific Railway left a boxcar as a marker for a watering hole that was to serve the steam-powered locomotives of the day. A railway superintendent named the spot after his wife, Clara. When a frame building replaced the boxcar in 1895, the place was called Claresholm.

When the coaches quit running in southern Alberta about 1920 Pop went to work for the CPR as a guard on their mail car runs.

August 23, 1886… The stagecoach that Scott & Leeson has been running since 1883 from Calgary to Edmonton and back is leaving the Dickson-Stevenson stopping place (nowadays Airdrie) heading for Calgary. Pete Campbell is the driver. The passengers are Mr. Burns, Mr. J Clockley and an elderly Frenchman. While passing through the shallow coulee near the Sharp Hill, two men masking their faces with pieces from a Union Jack place themselves in front of the stage pointing to the driver a Carbine and a Navy Colt's revolver. They collect altogether $484 and superficially they look at the mailbags. The watches and other valuables are left untouched and the robbers even give a few dollars back to the passengers, so they are not totally broke. A discussion between Pete Campbell and the robbers suggests that they had robbed somebody else the day before. While the passengers are sent back to the Dickson-Stevenson stop, the robbers unhitch the horses and ride them away.

From these letters we learn that Charley Lafferty and Jack Young fled and spent some time hiding in the Rockies and even the $1,000 reward could not lead to their capture. In 1887 they were again spotted trying to unsuccessfully cross Columbia River. Both the Canadian and the American authorities wanted them, but officially they were never apprehended. Some unidentified skeletal remains of two males were also discovered north of the Columbia River.

This uncommon occurrence in the NW Territories, a stagecoach robbery, which was preceded and followed by two murders, was handled with utmost professionalism and effectiveness by the NWMP, in spite of the escape of the two bandits. Ever since, with very few exceptions, the world-famous Mounties always got their man.

Pop retired in Clarsholm in 1940. My father moved to Clarsholm late in 1954 and met Pop in 1955. Pop was then about 80 years old and had not used the gun in a number of years, but he continued to keep it clean and oiled. He gave my dad the gun, along with a bunch of stories about places the gun had been with him, so he would have something to hunt with and because Pop knew my dad would take good care of the rifle.

 

[Winkfish]

I did do that and they were able to provide some information but not a ton. It is really interesting in my opinion on the history of the the device.

The rifle was give to my by my wife's aunt who found it in a closet at the old farm house when my wife's grandmother passed away. No one knew where the rifle came from and what they do remember was the 303 that her grandfather use to use. I informed them of the projected value of the rifle and offer to give them something for it. They saw no value in it and said just keep it. No my goal is keep it in the family and pass it down as a piece of history.

At the same time we were also give a clock that we can trace back to coming over from France over 200 years ago. Now it hangs on the wall and still keeps perfect time as long as you wind it up every seven or so days.

 

[Wilderness Blacktail]

The iron sights on those guns are regulated for a specific weight range of bullets at specific velocities. With a 115 I doubt you would be hitting within a foot of where the sights are looking.
Just load up some 150-170 grain bullets at the lower to medium level of book loads and have at it. The 30-30 was always loaded with smokeless powder so theres no real worries that any pressure tested load data is gunna hurt it since the smith gave it the OK.

Imr 4895 is one of my favorites for the 30-30. H335 is another as it produces higher velocity but ya dont need that for ur plinkin.

 

[Trental]

We'll this thread has turned into some cool bits of history.

 

[Auctioneer]

For its age it is in pretty good shape. I expanded the pictures and even the screw slots aren't mangled so whoever had it was careful taking it apart.. I would definitely get a Letter from the Cody Museum on the gun. For 75 bucks you often get a fair amount of info, might even get a starting point to try and trace the guns history, and the letter just adds to the collector interest. I have an 1894 made in 1896 in 38-55 that I have the whole history from the original owner and what he used it for and the original owner gave it to my father in 1955 or 56, It really is cool to know the history of a gun.

Here is the story just for interest sake:

The gun was bought new by Pop Day in 1897. The Scott and Lesson line, that ran between Edmonton and Calgary, had been held up August 3, 1886 and after that all of the coach lines hired guards or armed their drivers. Pop Day was hired late 1889 and after making pretty good money decided he wanted a new gun with repeater capability, rather than the single shot issued by the company. Thus he bought this gun and he used it for many years as his main rifle for guarding the Stage from Lethbridge to Fort MacLeod Alberta, and then Clarsholm. Clarsholm was the terminus of the Railhead that ran from Edmonton to Calgary and was named so by one of the superintendents for his wife Clara.

Before the turn of the century, the Macleod Trail was the region's primary North/South transportation route. In 1891 the Calgary and Edmonton Railway Line was extended to Claresholm. The town was located within a topographical low point to ensure that railway cars could not roll away. The next year, the Canadian Pacific Railway left a boxcar as a marker for a watering hole that was to serve the steam-powered locomotives of the day. A railway superintendent named the spot after his wife, Clara. When a frame building replaced the boxcar in 1895, the place was called Claresholm.

When the coaches quit running in southern Alberta about 1920 Pop went to work for the CPR as a guard on their mail car runs.

August 23, 1886… The stagecoach that Scott & Leeson has been running since 1883 from Calgary to Edmonton and back is leaving the Dickson-Stevenson stopping place (nowadays Airdrie) heading for Calgary. Pete Campbell is the driver. The passengers are Mr. Burns, Mr. J Clockley and an elderly Frenchman. While passing through the shallow coulee near the Sharp Hill, two men masking their faces with pieces from a Union Jack place themselves in front of the stage pointing to the driver a Carbine and a Navy Colt's revolver. They collect altogether $484 and superficially they look at the mailbags. The watches and other valuables are left untouched and the robbers even give a few dollars back to the passengers, so they are not totally broke. A discussion between Pete Campbell and the robbers suggests that they had robbed somebody else the day before. While the passengers are sent back to the Dickson-Stevenson stop, the robbers unhitch the horses and ride them away.

From these letters we learn that Charley Lafferty and Jack Young fled and spent some time hiding in the Rockies and even the $1,000 reward could not lead to their capture. In 1887 they were again spotted trying to unsuccessfully cross Columbia River. Both the Canadian and the American authorities wanted them, but officially they were never apprehended. Some unidentified skeletal remains of two males were also discovered north of the Columbia River.

This uncommon occurrence in the NW Territories, a stagecoach robbery, which was preceded and followed by two murders, was handled with utmost professionalism and effectiveness by the NWMP, in spite of the escape of the two bandits. Ever since, with very few exceptions, the world-famous Mounties always got their man.

Pop retired in Clarsholm in 1940. My father moved to Clarsholm late in 1954 and met Pop in 1955. Pop was then about 80 years old and had not used the gun in a number of years, but he continued to keep it clean and oiled. He gave my dad the gun, along with a bunch of stories about places the gun had been with him, so he would have something to hunt with and because Pop knew my dad would take good care of the rifle.

This is some very interesting history! I have often said, if some of these guns could talk.
As for some of the information on what caliber this gentleman's rifle is (30-40 Krag)???? Heaven forbid.

 

[Eric H]

Take care of that rifle. It's worth a lot of $$$$. You may want to get it insured.

 

[Winkfish]

I did load up a couple 110gr rounds over Varget. We were able to test it out last night. The gun fed from the magazine without issue and cycled just fine. It was pretty amazing to fire a rifle that is 125 years old. After I tried it my daughter wanted to give it a try. See attached

 

[Eric H]

I did load up a couple 110gr rounds over Varget. We were able to test it out last night. The gun fed from the magazine without issue and cycled just fine. It was pretty amazing to fire a rifle that is 125 years old. After I tried it my daughter wanted to give it a try. See attached

Hardly any kick. Nice short range deer gun.

 

[West Calamus]

This is one of the most enjoyable threads I have ever read on LRH. thx guys

 

[West Calamus]

Just a added note: The 30 WCF was designated 30-30 by rival gunmaker Marlin as 30 caliber with 30 gr. of early smokeless powder. The 30-40 Krag has been referred to as 30 US and 30 Army.

 

[Dean2]

I did load up a couple 110gr rounds over Varget. We were able to test it out last night. The gun fed from the magazine without issue and cycled just fine. It was pretty amazing to fire a rifle that is 125 years old. After I tried it my daughter wanted to give it a try. See attached

Glad to see you got it shooting. It really is fun to shoot and hunt with these old classics.