Pressure signs not showing at Max load

[MOOSE39465]

I'm seeing a lot of "flat" statements that may or may not be true for any given rifle. Yes, there are signs of pressure. No, there are no signs of pressure. Well, hogwash! Bear with me here, it's gonna be a bit of a trip!

There is only one use for factory ammo in my book, and that's getting a baseline on what your brass is going to look like after firing (plus you get some velocity data to beat!). I have rifles that always crater primers and I have rifles and pistols that always leave marks on the primers, as if the bolt or breech face were dirty. They aren't dirty, it's just the machine marks that get imprinted on the primer.

Extractor/ejector marks are another thing that a factory round will let you know about. I also have rifles that leave faint marks on the rim of the cartridge, just like in Mooses' picture. If you know for a fact that your rifle does that all the time, then you can be assured it isn't a pressure sign. But you *must* have something to compare to! I have factory (or low to mid range reloads) for each of my rifles and pistols so I have something to compare to. For instance, I have a S&W .357 that craters and flattens primers, even with mid range .38's! So I see flattened primers with all magnum loads, it's just something I expect.

A cratered primer can be one of several symptoms, from too much pressure (drop your load 2 grains and see if it still craters them. If yes, it's not a reliable pressure sign. If no... yep, you're getting close to max pressure with that primer) to a soft primer, to an oversized firing pin hole. Change primes to a harder brand and see if that helps.

This reloading stuff is mostly science but it's part voodoo, too! Weird and crazy things just happen at times, with no particular or obvious reason. The reason can usually be figured out (as in, "science the livin' 'ca-ca' out of it")... usually. And what seems logical often isn't!

Using reloading data from old books is ok for a reference but when it comes to minimum or maximum loads, you're taking your life in your hands, unless you have powder, primers and bullets from that era! Powders change over the years, get less or more bulky or powerful, faster or slower burning... so you should always use data that's the same age as your components.

There are very few flat statements you can make about reloading, especially when it comes to someone else's firearm & situation. Close, yes. Principles, yes. Theory, yes (a theory is something proven to this date but is subject to change with more information. A hypothesis is someones idea or best guess!) But flat statements can often come back to bite us where it hurts the most!

Moose, load up just one round with 2 gr. less powder and see if you still get the same signs on your brass (polish it up real nice so you can tell). And/or try a different brand of primer. You might also try loading a round, closing the bolt carefully, then eject the round and check for marks! I think these things alone might tell you lot more than all the conflicting ideas that have been tossed around in the last 7 pages! Someones going to be right and someones going to be close and someone is likely to be flat out wrong. But only you can actually figure it out for sure!
Cheers,
crkckr

At 40.5 grains I didn't see any pressure signs at all. I wish I took a picture but I needed to get that brass ready for Friday.

 

[MOOSE39465]

Sometimes folks or even my self want more out of a cartridge that we picked,,, if can be done if we modify the case and select a proven powder / primer / boolit combination,,, but sometimes it might be wizer to pick the next size cartridges that is larger...

An example might be a 308 Winchester,,, if we need to step it up a bit the idea might be a 30/06 or 300 Mag,,, if we still need more then jump into the larger case magnums or move into the 338 line up...

Still not enough,,,.move into the 378 magnum or 408...

Kinda like me on my build,,, I like the idea of the 6.5x47,,, 260,,, the Creed,,, instead of pushing the peak maximum charge I scaled up the cartridge to the 6.5 A-square so I can take it easy on the cases...

The 140 boolitz can top out at 2900 to 2950 ft-per seconds easy if not a fraction more...

I have the 147 grain'ers running at 2850 + for speed,, good enough for this Kow girl... Ha

If we want more,,, go a bit bigger,,, only makes sense to me and others I'm thinking...

JMO that is

Cheers

I have a 7mm Remington Magnum when I need to go beyond 400 yards. My max range is 600 yards and it will need to be a perfect situation before I even consider a shot.

 

[MNbogboy]

Had to full length resize for first reload because they wouldn't fit in my chamber just neck or bump sizing. My guess is the guy that shot the ammo had a maximum spec chamber and some hot factory ammo (Hornady did have a problem with some 140 Amax rounds when they first started selling it). Second reload was a .002 bump sizing but I think by that time they had already stretched out to far to be saved.

Very good point, hot loads on the first firing do more damage than subsequent firings because the brass is softer at that point. Load testing for max pressure often ruins the "max" case. Usually pocket expansion but obviously in your case excessive stretch. Normal loading do not even reach "full" length at the shoulder for 2 or 3 firings. Your .002 bump should allow for 10-12 firings with Hornady brass. Pockets usually are first to go. I have had good luck with hornady, federal, Starline & now prime in my 5 creeds. Hopefully there isn't too much of that "bad" hornady once fired stuff out there.
I didn't mean to be critical in my last post but head separation is and has been trouble for a lot of us (including me).
Randy

 

[MOOSE39465]

Very good point, hot loads on the first firing do more damage than subsequent firings because the brass is softer at that point. Load testing for max pressure often ruins the "max" case. Usually pocket expansion but obviously in your case excessive stretch. Normal loading do not even reach "full" length at the shoulder for 2 or 3 firings. Your .002 bump should allow for 10-12 firings with Hornady brass. Pockets usually are first to go. I have had good luck with hornady, federal, Starline & now prime in my 5 creeds. Hopefully there isn't too much of that "bad" hornady once fired stuff out there.
I didn't mean to be critical in my last post but head separation is and has been trouble for a lot of us (including me).
Randy

I can buy Hornady once fired brass very cheap.

 

[nicholasjohn]

1. Primers mean nothing. 2. Measuring cases heads mean a little. Only a pressure transducer set up tells the truth.

If you are exceeding the velocity of premium factory ammo with the same bullet & bbl length, you could be pushing your luck. Or you could have a very loose barrel with lotsa freebore.

Now while I love the 6.5 CM (I own 3), considering it a "Long Range HUNTING cartridge" is wishful thinking. Targets yes, big game no. It can't even equal the 6.5x55 in a modern rifle. I also have 2 6.5x55s and a 6.5x55 AI and a 6.5mm Long Range hunting cartridge, the 6.5-300 BEE. In my 30" bbl. point blank on deer size game is 400 yards +.

I'm a "get real close" guy when it comes to animals (cept bad hoomins) but love banging steel.

6.5x55 vs 6.5 BEE and my No. 1 6.5 BEE

View attachment 145157


View attachment 145158

I think you're right on the mark. There's pressure and there's relative pressure. A transducer is how you read the former, but due to their cost, those are not commonly used by the average shooter. Measuring relative pressure is about as close as most guys are likely to get. Since velocity is directly related to pressure, if one is getting the same velocity as the load that is said to generate "X" amount of pressure, then that is probably how much pressure he is getting with his load. If that isn't enough velocity, the best way to get more is to get a cartridge that has a larger capacity for powder, and a neck diameter that fits the same bullet. In short, GET A BIGGER HAMMER.

 

[chickm1]

Here you go thanks. That's after 25 rounds.

I blew the picture up, and I don't see that the firing pin hole is beveled.

 

[chickm1]

G'day moose
Mate your getting very close ,you have ejector marks for a start at oo in creedmore and that primer is cratered big time
Back off two grains and work your load again but keep away from the load your using
Cheers
Paul

I think I would back of 1/2 to 1 grain, and look at the case and primer. There was guy, that use to shoot Across the Course, and Long Range with me. I looked at his brass one day, and was shocked. The primer face was totally flat across the case head, and there was a split at the primer dent. I commented that he had really exceeded his pressure. He looked at it, and said he would maybe back off a 1/2 grain. I didn't say anything. A friend walked over, and said he had seen the guy's case and suggested a 2 grain cut. I agreed. haha.

 

[chickm1]

I agree that the 6.5 Creedmoor is not a long range hunting caliber.

Depending on what you call long range. That cartridge is very accurate to 600 yards, and probably further than that. For hunting, I trust my 7mm08 to 500, and there is not a lot of difference.

 

[MOOSE39465]

Depending on what you call long range. That cartridge is very accurate to 600 yards, and probably further than that. For hunting, I trust my 7mm08 to 500, and there is not a lot of difference.

Where I hunt 400 yards would be the limit when shooting whitetail. Of course it will change if I ever get to hunt in open country

 

[Clem Bronkoski]

I wouldn't push the 6.5 CM too far for game. Not too much past 500 yards. Its a great cartridge for long range steel shooting. But for hunting past 500 yards there are a lot better options.

 

[MOOSE39465]

I wouldn't push the 6.5 CM too far for game. Not too much past 500 yards. Its a great cartridge for long range steel shooting. But for hunting past 500 yards there are a lot better options.

I agree 100%

 

[chickm1]

I wouldn't push the 6.5 CM too far for game. Not too much past 500 yards. Its a great cartridge for long range steel shooting. But for hunting past 500 yards there are a lot better options.

Kinda what I said............

 

[chickm1]

remember when David Tubb won the silhouette championship, with a box stock Remington 7mm08. Got my attention enough, that I went out and bought one, then another, and another.........haha I love my 7mm08. Yall can keep the 6.5 CM.

 

[Old Blue Dawg]

There is not 1 hunter in 1000 who is competent to make a 500 yard shot on big game. 1st, too may variables. 2nd it's not hunting, it's long range shooting using live targets. 3rd Unless you are in a wheelchair, you can always get closer. The Terminal energy of a 6.5 CM @ 500 yds is way below ethical big game standards. Out here in WYO, we see the results of people who think technology can solve all problems. But, *** wolves have to eat too and a 3 legged Elk is far easier to run down.