PPU brass

[freddiej]

Y'all I have been reloading on my own since the early 1980's this problem I am having with my friend's 243 Winchesters is either laughable or Privi Partizan brass hates me. Here is the situation: I can full length resize any piece of range brass or brass fired in his two 243 Win's and they fit in either gun. However: try this with PPU brass, which he has 1,200 rounds of, and 99% will not fit in the chamber again. The brass is 0.001" to 0.003" too long at the datum line of the shoulder. I have used my Hornady custom grade dies for no less than eight 243 win's and they work perfectly. I checked the chambers with my 243/7mm-08/308 headspace gauge and they are a bit tight but nothing that raises a red flag. The only solution I can find is toss the 1,200 pieces of PPU brass and buy anything else. I truly mean any other manufacturer of brass. this PPU stuff just will not resize to fit these two chambers. One is a high end Savage 10 varminter and the other is a Ruger American. Jay doesn't like my suggestion to fix the problem. Even he has noticed that the sparse amount of Winchester, R-P, Federal, and super speed brass he has picked up for the last 3 months is the only brass that fit back in the chamber once they are resized.
I have a second solution but it is very labor intensive and it does not always work. This is annealing them and quenching them 3 to 4 times to soften the brass to the point they do not spring back to out of spec.
I have several calibers that I have a handful of PPU/Privi Partizan brass for various calibers and this has never happened to me.
Has anyone else had this problem with Privi brass?

 

[bigedp51]

Pause at the top of the ram stroke for 4 or 5 seconds when you full length resize the problem cases. The pausing reduces brass spring back and the case shoulder should stay put.

If this does not work I would recommend a small base die that sizes the case closer to minimum SAAMI dimensions.

 

[freddiej]

I will try pausing at the top of the stroke and see if that helps. if it does not.. Jay will just have to find other brass to use in his guns. I am not going to spend all my waking hours reloading for him.

 

[can1010]

put a feeler gauge between the shell holder and the brass that will increase the set back. my buddy 300 win mag has a tighter chamber than mine and that is all I do so I don't have to change die settings.
annealing will also help so try both before getting rid of the brass

 

[freddiej]

can1010, the brass springs back to be too long, adding more length will do the opposite of what I need to do, the brass needs to be shorter to fit into the chamber again. these brass cases are too springy.

 

[Jud96]

PPU brass is garbage. It's a shame he has so much of it. It's the most inconsistent brass I've ever used.

 

[Dmagna]

If you are getting brass SnapBack you will have to anneal the brass. Or just buy Lapua

 

[bigedp51]

From reading the OP posting it sounds like the Prvi Partizan brass is once fired from another rifle chamber. Meaning these cases were fire formed in another chamber and do not fit in the new chamber.

When you full length resize a cases you are squeezing the case smaller in diameter. This squeezing makes the case grow in length until the dies shoulder pushes the shoulder back. So again if the Prvi brass was fired in another "larger and longer" chamber even after sizing the case wants to spring back to its fired size.

So again pause at the top of the ram stroke to reduce brass spring back or size the cases with a small base die. Also make sure you have the die adjusted making hard contact with the shell holder with press cam over.

And I also think Prvi Partizan brass is very good brass and made better than many other cases. Below are British 303 cases fired in the same Enfield rifle. The Prvi cases have a larger base diameter and are .010 thicker in the base and have thicker rims. Meaning the Priv cases are made Ford Truck Tough and are not junk.

 

[freddiej]

Bigedp51, this is the first time I have had problems with PPU brass.
to answer your question or your misunderstanding: the PPU brass was fired from the offending Ruger American. once resized it will not fit in the chamber ever again without annealing and sizing 4 times. I can and have taken Remington-Peters, Federal, Winchster, Super Speed, Hornady, Western, W-W, and other brass Manufacturers from the range and sized them with 99.9% success of putting them in this chamber. PPU brass will not fit back in the chamber after he sizes them, I size them, Chris (a friend with another 243) can size them and none of these sizing dies will allow the PPU brass to go back into the chamber. they spring to over the length of the chamber. I was going to tell him to neck size only but then 50% of the brass will not go back into the chamber it was fired from. so that is out. this has been the most frustrating brass I have ever used. The utter travesty of all this it's only this batch of 243 brass. I have PPU brass in other calibers that I use for practice out on the range that I found on the range and use in my own guns. they work perfectly. it's just this specific brass and these specific two guns I am having problems with. I am going to ask a few friends to come up to my shop and see if these brass will fit in their chambers, just for giggles.

 

[MNbogboy]

Here's my take, the ruger chamber is "fatter" (but not necessarily longer). The die/shell holder setup even at cam/over is lengthening the cases longer than the savage and ruger chambers.
Problem is the PPU brass soft enough to "flow" well in the die and is not springing back enough (like other brass you have tried).
The feeler gauge between the shell holder and case head trick may show that the above is true. But if you are already hard camming over it may not.
Proper annealing and the pause may help. If all else fails you can remove material off the top of shell holder or bottom of the die.

Also use a Sharpie to color a case to detect where the actual interference is. If it is in the body a small base die is the cure and not related to length at all.
If interference is at the body shoulder junction be careful not to bump back too much or brass life will be shortened due to head separation.
I've found ppu brass is ok after careful sorting (weight/volume) but about 50% loss for culls. Makes it more expensive.
It anneal well. Pockets ok after 8-9 loading with mild loads. Lighter or equivalent to hornady with approximate same case capacities. Bad thing not made in usa. Btw; I convert 8x57 mauser brass for my 6.5/257 Roberts Ackley 40deg. If lapua made 8x57 I'd prob use that.
Good luck,
Randy

 

[freddiej]

MN Bog Boy,
Randy, this is the other problem that I discussed. he has two 243's. one is the Ruger American, the other is a Savage 10 varminter. any other brass will resize and fit in both chambers. just the PPU brass will not fit in either chamber after being resized.. I have used my micrometers, calibers, and checked everything I can, except for the length from the shoulder to the back of the case. that is the only reason I say these brass will spring the shoulders back too far. that is the other reason I am having such a horrific time. I am a gunsmith and have hunting season traffic in the shop and have no time to sit all day and anneal, size, anneal and size these brass.

 

[MNbogboy]

MN Bog Boy,
Randy, this is the other problem that I discussed. he has two 243's. one is the Ruger American, the other is a Savage 10 varminter. any other brass will resize and fit in both chambers. just the PPU brass will not fit in either chamber after being resized.. I have used my micrometers, calibers, and checked everything I can, except for the length from the shoulder to the back of the case. that is the only reason I say these brass will spring the shoulders back too far. that is the other reason I am having such a horrific time. I am a gunsmith and have hunting season traffic in the shop and have no time to sit all day and anneal, size, anneal and size these brass.

A simple method to compare & measure base to shoulder is use a small socket as a case comparator that just fits over the neck. Before & after sizing will probably show you longer after sizing. I've ran into that several times with "minimum length" chambers. Possibility is die/shell holder mfg. mismatch. If you have access to another shell holder with less height from cartridge base to top that might give you what you need. I've taken them down with a surface grinder and also with emery paper on a glass base. You can also remove it from the bottom of the die.
I believe the "softness" of the PPU brass is allowing the growth without enough "springback" that other brands you have tried. And the ruger chamber is probably has diameters towards the outside of tolerance creating the extra "squeeze" length. How do diameter measurements stack up against brass fired in other chambers?
I do recommend a good shoulder/neck anneal after the die length problem is cured if that's what it turns out to be.
Trimming the die or shell holder is usually a good thing anyway to allow adjustability for all brands & condition of brass in any "tight" chamber to prevent heavily loaded cam-over. Looser/longer chambers don't present this problem as die never touches shell holder. Too bad that instructions with dies often send people down a murky path.
I've had trouble with a few savages that were easier to re-headspace but with the ruger it might require setting it back and re-chambering. That might not make a lot of sense with over 1200 rounds already. I certainly wouldn't run any of my reamers back in a barrel with that many rounds!
Hope you get it figured out.
Randy

 

[freddiej]

Randy, deepening the chamber on the Ruger is exactly what I intend to do. The Manson reamer is on order. All I am going to do is take a 0.002" cut to use just the PPU brass. Also to smooth out the shoulder, the brass has a really rough shoulder like the reamer broke while reaming the chamber. He can run all the other brands in his Savage. He loves the Ruger and it's his primary gun. That chamber gets the cut to take the PPU brass. BTW, I just got off the bench with 4 pieces of PPU brass sized on my machine from Jay's brass. They fit all of the other 243 win's in the coyote hunter's guild. Two Winchsters, five Remingtons, a Savage, three Tikka T-3's, and four custom builds out of Lee's shop.
Used a small socket to compare the PPU brass resized to other brass resized. a distinct 0.002" to 0.004" longer than the other brass measured. measured the fired but not resized brass and found the shoulder comes out under SAAMI minimum or very close to it. factory ammo is normally 0.002" below SAAMI minimum, fired PPU brass comes out 0.001" over factory brass.

 

[MNbogboy]

That sounds like it should solve the problem. My only concern would be running the reamer into the firecracked hardened chamber. What does it look like with a scope or bore cam?
On the other hand the reamer may cut it like butter. The other problem without a full setback is the new reamer may not "clean" up the old chamber with only .002 thousandth cut.
Trying not to be negative but these concerns might be worth looking at if you haven't already.
I dulled a reamer big time cutting an ackley improved on a "well" used barrel.
Keep me posted and good luck,
Randy