powder ring in barrel ?

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by den, Jan 19, 2014.

  1. den

    den Well-Known Member

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    I am wondering what would cause a heavy powder ring about halfway down barrel after only about ten rounds fired from a clean bore ? , is it anything to be concerned about? it is a savage 338lapua 26 in barrel & the load is 85.7 gr rl 25, 300 gr nos acubond 2650 fps thanks
     
  2. 65WSM

    65WSM Well-Known Member

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    When you say a clean barrel, what do you mean? Are you cleaning with carbon based solvent that does not leave a rust protective reside? Are you cleaning with a liquid that leaves a residue? I suspect that carbon from the powder (My use of R-25 in the 6.5 WSM and 300 Ultra Mag have shown me that this powder is particularly rich in carbon fouling.) is grabbing on to cleaning liquid that is supposed to protect the bore from rust.

    Carbon like this destroys accuracy and barrel life.


    Have you tried Retumbo? It burns cleaner than R-25. I believe that H-1000 and Retumbo are the same formula except that Retumbo has a little more retardant. They come out of the same factory, look similar and behave similar.

    Clean the barrel with a bronze brush and SeaFoam or Lacquer thinner that contains xylene. This will actually leave a carbon free surface with no residual "rust preventative" layer which can pick up carbon.
     
  3. den

    den Well-Known Member

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    thanks for the advice 65 wsm will look into these I have been using butchs bore shine according to directions patches and brush then dry patches to remove solvent and follow with breakfree powder blast on patches then dry patches , normaly use kroil but ran out & have not been leaving anything in bore as I shoot pretty regularly I have 1lb of ret, 1lb of 1000 and 2 of 33 but no leads on more accept possibly 33 and so was trying rl25 that I have more of , and in doing some powder charge testing at 360 yds in .5 gr increments and some seating depth testing .003 increments at 100 yds I think I have a load although slow side 2650fps with an es of 7 for three shots two in one hole one off slightly, me I think , then noticed the carbon buildup, going to clean & shoot some more as soon as I can see what happens, thanks again
     
  4. Dosh

    Dosh Well-Known Member

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    Den, IOSSO Bore Paste removes that carbon ring very well. $6.99 everywhere.
     
  5. AZShooter

    AZShooter Well-Known Member

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    Curious are you using a bore scope to view this carbon ring? I have a borescope and it is amazing the things you see. To date I have not seen a carbon ring anywhere.

    I agree Iosso works great to remove stubborn fouling. I have SEEN the results.
     
  6. Reloader222

    Reloader222 Well-Known Member

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    I would change the powder type. Some barrels just do not work with some powders. It has to do with the chemical compound of the barrel.
     
  7. TracySes23

    TracySes23 Well-Known Member

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    I'm a bit confused as to where carbon build-up in a barrel is coming from, unless it's from ball powders which have a very thin graphite coating. I would suspect it would easily burn & produce Carbon Dioxide at the temperatures smokeless powder burn at. I can see where there might be a carbon residue coming from lubricant left in the bore, but I suspect that would also be minimal. There is no carbon in or on any other forms of smokeless powder base on my research.
    In the past, just as everyone else, I've assumed carbon build-up was a given, especially since it looked like carbon, but I apparently was wrong, for longer than I care to admit.
    I just spent $15 on Boretech Carbon Remover.

    Checkout this web page:

    FIREARMS TUTORIAL

    Spencer
     
  8. 65WSM

    65WSM Well-Known Member

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    The carbon is coming from the cellulose part of nitrocellulose. Cellulose is a carbohydrate polymer that makes up plant fibers, wood, cotton, rayon, etc. Cellulose is made by plants "fixing" carbon dioxide from the atmosphere in a process called photosynthesis. An example of the carbon content of cellulose is that under pressure for 270 million years and cellulose becomes coal, more pressure graphite and even more pressure diamonds.

    When I use Reloader 25 in my 6.5 WSM I often refer to it as "burning soft coal." The comment has some truth.

    Cellulose treated with Nitric Acid produces Nitrocellulose which is single base smokeless powder. The nitrocellulose is a polymer which was used at one time to make photographic film. Running a projector in a movie theatre was at one time a dangerous job because of the nitrocellulose. Under desperate circumstances photographic film has been cut into pieces and put in handloads in place of powder. I tried it as a youth. It works, but you still have to have a primer.

    Herter's used to sell paints, for painting fishing lures and duck decoys, that used nitrocellulose dissolved in ketone as a polymer base. "Celluloid Enamel" I used to have a collection of colors of those paints.

    I like to use SeaFoam from NAPA or WalMart for carbon removal. Carbon is a big issue and quickly expands groups with my .20 PPC and .204 Ruger rifles.
     
  9. TracySes23

    TracySes23 Well-Known Member

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    The carbon is coming from the cellulose part of nitrocellulose. Cellulose is a carbohydrate polymer that makes up plant fibers, wood, cotton, rayon, etc. Cellulose is made by plants "fixing" carbon dioxide from the atmosphere in a process called photosynthesis. An example of the carbon content of cellulose is that under pressure for 270 million years and cellulose becomes coal, more pressure graphite and even more pressure diamonds.

    When I use Reloader 25 in my 6.5 WSM I often refer to it as "burning soft coal." The comment has some truth.

    Cellulose treated with Nitric Acid produces Nitrocellulose which is single base smokeless powder. The nitrocellulose is a polymer which was used at one time to make photographic film. Running a projector in a movie theatre was at one time a dangerous job because of the nitrocellulose. Under desperate circumstances photographic film has been cut into pieces and put in handloads in place of powder. I tried it as a youth. It works, but you still have to have a primer.

    Herter's used to sell paints, for painting fishing lures and duck decoys, that used nitrocellulose dissolved in ketone as a polymer base. "Celluloid Enamel" I used to have a collection of colors of those paints.

    I like to use SeaFoam from NAPA or WalMart for carbon removal. Carbon is a big issue and quickly expands groups with my .20 PPC and .204 Ruger rifles.[/quote]

    Did you go to that link I attached? It appeared to be extremely thorough to me & there was absolutely no mention of Carbon. Below is only part of the article. Perhaps they don't know what they're talking about.

    Examination of Gunshot Residue

    Appearances of Gunpowder

    All gunpowders are designed to burn quickly to produce rapid expansion of gas in a confined space. In an explosion something gets very big very fast. The burning rate of gunpowder can be classified in three categories:

    Degressive (regressive) burning: gunpowder grains formed in flakes, balls, and sticks have a burning surface area that decreases continuously as the grains are consumed.

    Neutral burning: gunpowder grains that are single perforated and the burning surface area remains relatively constant.

    Progressive burning: gunpowder grains that are multiperforated and rosettes that have a burning surface area that increases continuously as the grains are consumed.

    Unburned gunpowders can have recognizable shapes, colors, and sizes of grains. (Pun and Gallusser, 2007)

    Composition of Gunshot Residue

    Firing a weapon produces combustion of both the primer and powder of the cartridge. The residue of the combustion products, called gunshot residue, can consist of both burned and unburned primer or powder components, and can be used to detect a fired cartridge. Gunshot residue may be found on the skin or clothing of the person who fired the gun, on an entrance wound of a victim, or on other target materials at the scene. The discharge of a firearm, particularly a revolver, can deposit residues even to persons at close proximity, so interpretations as to who fired the weapon should be made with caution. (Dalby et al, 2010)

    The major primer elements are lead (Pb), barium (Ba), or antimony (Sb). Usually, all three are present. Less common elements include aluminum (Al), sulfur (S), tin (Sn), calcium (Ca), potassium (K), chlorine (Cl), copper (Cu), strontium (Sr), zinc (Zn), titanium (Ti), or silicon (Si). A mercury-fulminant based primer may be found in ammunition manufactured in Eastern Europe and used in the Middle East.(Zeichner, et al, 1992) Primer elements may be easier to detect in residues because they do not get as hot as the powder. So-called "lead free" ammunition may contain one or more elements including strontium (Sr), zinc (Zn), titanium (Ti), copper (Cu), antimony (Sb), aluminum (Al), or potassium (K). Both titanium and zinc are commonly used in paints and can be contaminants, but the appearance of particles containing them can be distinguished from gunshot residue by SEM. (Martiny et al, 2008) (Dalby et al, 2010)

    Detection of Gunshot Residue

    The major methods for detection of primer residues are analytical and qualitative. Analytical methods include neutron activation analysis (NAA) as well as atomic absorption spectrophotometry (AAS) and inductively coupled plasma mass spectroscopy (ICP-MS). Scanning electron microscopy with energy dispersive analysis by x-ray detector (SEM-EDX) and atomic force microscopy (AFM) are used to identify the primer residue qualitatively. An X-ray analyzer can be beamed directly onto the particles visualized with SEM, so that the energy dispersive pattern can be generated, giving the elemental composition of the particles. For these methods, samples must be obtained from the skin surfaces of a victim at the scene. Delay in obtaining residues, movement, or washing of the body prior to autopsy will diminish or destroy gunshot residues. (Molina et al, 2007) A rapid loss in numbers of GSR particles occurs from 1 to 3 hours post firearm discharge, though maximum recovery times of 1 to 48 hours have been reported. (Dalby et al, 2010)
    *********
    I worked at a research facility at the University of Illinois for many years, not as a researcher, but as a machine shop supervisor & I worked closely with many researchers over the years. So I know darned well that equipment mentioned above has the capability to find Carbon if it exists in any amount. So, I can't fathom why wasn't in included in the list of residue? I do know it's in cellulose.
    What we see looks like carbon to me too, but it wasn't on the list. Doesn't it strike you as odd?
     
  10. TracySes23

    TracySes23 Well-Known Member

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    I finally realized why no carbon residue was found in that study I discovered on the Internet. They weren't looking for residue in a gun barrel, they were referring to residue at a crime scene. Now I really feel like an idiot.

    Spencer
     
  11. Korhil78

    Korhil78 Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry...I saw all the element abbreviations and other abbreviations so I didn't even read it. I am sure most will do the same. :D
     
  12. TracySes23

    TracySes23 Well-Known Member

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    I had to say something or I couldn't think well of myself. If I believe I'm wrong I always eat crow. It never tastes good but the longer it ages, the worse it tastes.
     
  13. Punisher

    Punisher Well-Known Member

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    I think you could be seeing a combination of problems. After you use butch's bore shine, run a lightly oiled patch down the bore and then thoroughly dry the bore. After a full cleaning like this, I shoot a fouling shot and run dry patches down the bore until they look pretty clean.p


    I had another thought. It is less pleasant but you can check this and have proof. Look for a tight spot in the bore. Maybe the difference in friction in the bore is creating a spot that gets fouled more heavily. I hope it isn't that!
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2014