Occasional cleaning incompatible with precision reloading?

[ButterBean]

In various threads I see some say that they don't clean their rifles until they see accuracy drop off. I spent quite a while cleaning my 224 Valkyrie yesterday, and began to wonder if those who don't clean regularly are missing a point.

One of the things precision shooters seek is absolute consistency in everything they do in the reloading process, down to a half a thousandth or half a grain of tolerance where possible. The barrel obviously has a material impact on a fired round's performance, why would it make sense to leave the barrel in an uncontrolled condition, when great effort is made to control every other parameter? Are those who don't clean regularly primarily hunters who hunt at near to mid-distances, at which precision is less important? Do any precision shooters choose not to clean regularly? I don't mean to start a controversy but I am curious about this seeming inconsistency.

We all want accuracy but this is the Long Range Hunting Site and folks seem to lose sight of that pretty regular around here anymore, If you do a search this has been beat to death a hundred times and it boils down to a personal choice, Do what works for you, FWIW I shot 450+ rounds out of a 308 over a period of a year and never touched it, it was still dead nuts, I finally cleaned it out of guilt

 

[Jeffpatton00]

For a custom lapped barrel that doesn't foul easily, it can handle 200-300 rounds without NEEDING to be cleaned.
A rough factory barrel will foul quickly, therefore REQUIRING frequent cleaning.
My match barrels shoot exactly the same clean or fouled, so cleaning them is not necessary. Barrels that change POI from clean to fouled, or cold bore differences, don't hang around long for me. If lapping said barrel makes no difference, it gets sent down the road. I don't want a barrel that takes several foulers to settle in, as people say.
What point is having a barrel that you clean, then have to shoot bullets in it so that it stops spraying bullets everywhere?
During a season of match shooting, I clean my bores with a carbon solvent and Hoppe's Benchrest between weekends, this may be 88 rounds or 172 rounds.
They get cleaned fully 3 times during this period so I can see the haze cracking and lengthening of the throat...I do not chase the lands either. I adjust powder charge to stay within a velocity window and tweak going forward. When the node is no longer achievable I set-back .100" or more and re-chamber as needed.
I nominally get 3 set-backs per barrel and well into 3500 rounds as a rule.
I shoot belted magnums, they eat barrels, but this can be managed by powder choice and bullet choice, temp stable powders help, but it is not always necessary to use them. Double base powders yield more Joules per grain of powder, burn cooler per specific weight and can lengthen throat life, as do ball powders.
Pressure, heat and time are your enemies for barrel life, control this, to a point, and you will have good barrel life, abuse it, and you will not.
Frequent cleanings with most of today's powder formulations should not be necessary, they have ingredients to help them burn cleaner and deposit less fouling.

Cheers.

MM, I always read your posts carefully, there's a lot of experienced wrapped up in them. You mention custom & lapped barrels don't need a lot of cleaning, let me ask you, I have a 30" Bartlein 5R 6.5 progressive twist on my 224 Valkyrie, and it takes a surprising number of patches to even begin to get from black to light gray. It was built by a smith in PA and I don't remember if it was lapped, but what should I take from the fact that this barrel takes so much work to clean?

 

[Gamesniper19]

MM, I always read your posts carefully, there's a lot of experienced wrapped up in them. You mention custom & lapped barrels don't need a lot of cleaning, let me ask you, I have a 30" Bartlein 5R 6.5 progressive twist on my 224 Valkyrie, and it takes a surprising number of patches to even begin to get from black to light gray. It was built by a smith in PA and I don't remember if it was lapped, but what should I take from the fact that this barrel takes so much work to clean?

If it were any other barrel manufacturer, I would say there may be build issues, barrel steel quality issues, or some other manufacturing or quality control issue that was affecting the need to clean. Not with Bartlein
I agree with MM around custom barrel quality, and as such generally needing less cleaning.

Nearly every barrel that we tracked through manufacturing and control (including those used in military testing) the amount of cleaning was always individually barrel subjective. The only time we saw nearly exact cleaning and wear performance was with barrels in the same lot using the same steel, cutter, final build manufacturing controls, same caliber and like accuracy load cocktails. We have no data supporting barrels being easier to clean than another across an entire lifecycle. Too many factors including:

• Barrel steel and cutter quality, to your point has it been lapped. Button rifle barrels should be lapped (they are from custom but not from off the shelf barrels). Lapping is as much art as it is science and a bad lapping job can actually be more detrimental to a barrel than not lapping at all. Cut rifle barrels do not require lapping if they are made correctly - Bartlein cut rifles
• Type of powder, bullet, primer used
• Type of cleaning solution and cleaning gear used - this can be a big factor
• Break in - Bartlein recommends a break in process on their site
• Cleaning prowess. Yes, there is technique to cleaning correctly and completely and a barrel will tell you if you are treating it correctly

Every barrel is different. I run all custom cut rifle barrels that i know have been made correctly and have tolerances within a 10 thousandth. I have some barrels that clean up more quickly than others. They just do. For those that take more work, I continue to clean until they show clean. Running a few more solvent or cleaning patches through a barrel wont hurt it. No matter how easy or hard they are to clean, if they shoot with accuracy you want, keep shooting.

 

[T3ninja]

In my hunting rifle, proof .300WM. It seems to shoot the squeaky clean bullet the same as the next 20-30 rounds. I can't remember ever shooting it more without cleaning it. I only shoot it with a suppressor and feel like that makes it dirtier with having some back pressure.

I like keeping it clean, because like was said earlier, it's a common baseline that I can always accomplish. Even if I'm on a hunting trip. It's easy enough to clean after a rain/snow, or if it happens to take a tumble and end up muddy. Whereas shooting 2-10 fouling shots isnt always an option.

 

[MagnumManiac]

MM, I always read your posts carefully, there's a lot of experienced wrapped up in them. You mention custom & lapped barrels don't need a lot of cleaning, let me ask you, I have a 30" Bartlein 5R 6.5 progressive twist on my 224 Valkyrie, and it takes a surprising number of patches to even begin to get from black to light gray. It was built by a smith in PA and I don't remember if it was lapped, but what should I take from the fact that this barrel takes so much work to clean?

A dark patch, even slightly grey, can be a hint of carbon picked up at the throat and end of chamber.
If your barrel is a Bartlein, then it is lapped before it leaves the factory. They all are.
I have had similar results on a lapped barrel, patches run down it discolour, but it is an even colour over the entire patch.
My patches are generally tight enough that they will actually squeak when run dry.
Even if I run a soaked patch with JB, run it until it is black with several passes, then follow with dry patches I can get a dark patch like you describe. I take this as the chamber may have a carbon ring or the neck area of the chamber is dirty.
But even after cleaning those areas with a carbon cleaner I can still get a dark patch, so I don't really sweat it too much.
Like I said, I only clean to bare metal to see how much throat erosion is going on and whether I need a set-back and re-chamber.
I clean my hunting rifles, whether custom or not, only when they need it.
If a rifle is abused, by this I mean shot fast with long periods of rapid fire, the haze cracking in the steel is full of carbon, this will also show up on a patch and can't be completely removed.
Anyway, I wouldn't sweat the grey patch too much, black patches indicate carbon that is stubborn in my experience.

Cheers.

 

[Mike Matteson]

My biggest tolerance control comes from a few spots, brass stretch and ensuring perfect alignment between brass and bullet to barrel. With that:

• I full length resize .001 back every time
• I trim case length to ensure .001 tolerance every time and ensure it is square to the chamber
• I make sure all neck tensions are consistent
• Measure every bullet from base to ogive and ensure seating tolerances are no more than .001 (my gauge reads to 10 thou)

In most of my rifles the actual powder charge is fine to within 1/10 of a grain. Especially in any rifle I am shooting that uses >40 grains of powder. IME that process has ensured that my rifles shoot consistently through every cycle.

I have some question in set up. I am changing the way I reload to the more update ways. I am an animal shooter, not match shooter. My range is about 500yds max presently. My groups are about 1/2" at 100yds in whatever rifle or caliber I use.
I seen some or several error's in my ways on how I was reloading.
What I don't fully understand is squaring up to chamber.

 

[Ckleeves]

I think it's 100% dependent on the barrel, powder used, chambering etc. Some can go a very high round count without any sort of cleaning and keep hammering 1/2" moa. Others you have to clean or you start getting pressure and accuracy issues.

IME the smaller the bore and the more overbore the cartridge the more it's (probably) going to need cleaned. A .308 will more then likely need cleaned less often then a .264 superwhizbang.

 

[Gamesniper19]

I have some question in set up. I am changing the way I reload to the more update ways. I am an animal shooter, not match shooter. My range is about 500yds max presently. My groups are about 1/2" at 100yds in whatever rifle or caliber I use.
I seen some or several error's in my ways on how I was reloading.
What I don't fully understand is squaring up to chamber.

Sounds like you are already getting great results from your shooting and reloading. 1/2 MOA works all day.
My reference to squaring means;

• The chamber was cut square and true to the bore
• The bolt, lugs and face were all cut square and trued to the action and bore
• The bolt face is square so that your brass sits perfectly in the bolt face and square to the truing
• Length of brass is all consistent and trimming square means that all your brass sits in the chamber true to bore center and length is perfectly concentric
• Bump of .001 of your fired brass ensures you are controlling expansion with every shot - I often see a .3 group turn into a .2 or .15 group after shooting all my brass 1 time and sizing.

By doing this, every time you squeeze the trigger and your brass expands in the chamber, the expansion is controlled and consistent keeping a pressures constant. That ensures that the bullet will contact the lands perfectly and then is pushed down the barrel with consistent pressure. Lowers your SD's significantly and ensures accuracy of the rifle and load. Personally I don't weigh my brass. I buy one lot of high quality brass and use only that brass until its through its reloading cycle. If that means I have to buy 600 so be it. Even Bergers can vary slightly within the lot so I buy 1 lot of bullets and measure each lot from base to ogive to ensure proper seating. Usually I will buy enough of the same lot of bullets to burn through that barrel, if that is 1200 or 3000, that is how many I buy.

 

[Mike Matteson]

My biggest tolerance control comes from a few spots, brass stretch and ensuring perfect alignment between brass and bullet to barrel. With that:

• I full length resize .001 back every time
• I trim case length to ensure .001 tolerance every time and ensure it is square to the chamber
• I make sure all neck tensions are consistent
• Measure every bullet from base to ogive and ensure seating tolerances are no more than .001 (my gauge reads to 10 thou)

In most of my rifles the actual powder charge is fine to within 1/10 of a grain. Especially in any rifle I am shooting that uses >40 grains of powder. IME that process has ensured that my rifles shoot consistently through every cycle.

I don't quite follow on square to the chamber. I would think that at the time of trimming the case it would square up the end of the case to it's respective case each time it's trimmed. How does that square to the chamber?
The rest of it I agree very much with what you said and understand it.
I know I am upgrading my reloading equipment presently. I have a few items to get yet. The biggest problem it's all being shipped to Montana to my son home. I can't my hands on the items I have purchase. and it's bugging me.

 

[LongBomber]

There is some consistency to not cleaning as well. The bore seems to reach a state where it is consistently fouled, then you go past that and groups begin to open up.

If you are someone who cleans religiously, and cleans every 20-30 rounds to keep a spotless "consistent" bore, at a prs match you would need to clean between every second or third stage. Last 2 day match I went to was 200 rounds, plus sightins and some plinking after. For the cleaning regiment of some people I should have cleaned my rifle 10x that weekend. That is just not realistic.

 

[Gamesniper19]

I don't quite follow on square to the chamber. I would think that at the time of trimming the case it would square up the end of the case to it's respective case each time it's trimmed. How does that square to the chamber?
The rest of it I agree very much with what you said and understand it.
I know I am upgrading my reloading equipment presently. I have a few items to get yet. The biggest problem it's all being shipped to Montana to my son home. I can't my hands on the items I have purchase. and it's bugging me.

It squares it to the chamber when all the other steps have taken place. Once you bump it back .001 and trim perfect, you have a case that is perfectly squared to chamber dimensions.

 

[MagnumManiac]

Talking of square to the chamber, how many of you run a plunger ejector?

Cheers.

 

[RODSTRADLEY]

After firing 20-50 rounds I have been using a one caliber larger Real Avid bore snake, that I put Butch's Boar Shine (soaked) at leading end of the wick and pull it through twice, it hasn't changed POI (no flyers). Now since I bought a bore scope I find myself cleaning it about every time at the end of the day because I see some traces of cooper. Just like yesterday, after firing the first shot it was back to zero. So now I have been going to the fabic store to buy more flannel to cut for patches!

I remember watching on American Rifleman where this countres Army cleaned their rifles so much they wiped the riflings out of the barrel, now that is a lot of idel time!!