New to this: .308 600-1000y shooting

[Optix]

I'm sure this has been addressed in the past, just looking to get a good answer.

I'm a beginner shooter: I purchased my first rifle two months ago, a Savage Axis .308 heavy barrel with a 3-10x Mueller scope. After a single session and just over a dozen shots, I was shooting with a ~3" deviation at 200y.

I'm getting ahead of myself for sure, but I'm looking to get more information for 600-1000y shooting. I've read many articles and have found .308s are only "reliable" to 800m (875y) but are capable of hitting 1000y at 35-40 MOA adjustment.

I'm looking at purchasing a Bushnell Elite 6500 scope in the near future, I've read great reviews (like below) and the price is just right for my budget.

Real Guns - Bushnell's Elite 6500 - When I pick one for myself

I guess that is all just backstory leading up to my actual dilemma. For long range shooting, what is the best or most common practice for, say, 1000 yard shooting? Do you zero at 500y to achieve the necessary angle required to shoot extra distance? I'm not looking to use a canted base, so just not sure what the best methods are.

As it happens, I work with law enforcement, most of the guys hunt but they are all firing at less than 300y so they've been unable to answer most of my questions for long range shooting.

Again, I'm admittedly a beginner, but do my homework and pick up skills very quick. I'm looking to do this right the first time, so my aim is to not reinvent the wheel, and collaborate with more seasoned shooters to see what is commonplace.

Thanks for your time, and any replies, in advance.

 

[benchracer]

When it comes to your learning curve, here are a couple of links that are a good place to start:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f5/making-case-308-winchester-michael-eichelle-47586/

.308 Win Cartridge Guide within AccurateShooter.com

Also, check out the writings of LRH member montanamarine. A google search will also yield some of his writings on some other sites like Sniper's Hide. He has done a lot of long range work with the .308 out to, and beyond, 1000 yards. A lot of his work has been from shorter barrels, too, so it should have additional relevance to your equipment.

Another source is a blog written by German Salazar. Though most of his work was done with the 30-06, he has done some writing about the .308 and a lot of the knowledge he shares is also applicable to the .308. His blog is:

The Rifleman's Journal

From what I can tell, your rifle has a 22" barrel with a 1:10 twist. Though a longer barrel is preferred by many for long range work, the .308 is generally not as sensitive to barrel length as many other cartridges are, so the shorter barrel shouldn't be too much of a handicap.

The fact that you have a 10 twist is a very good thing. This will allow you to use some of the latest and very best bullets in the .308. Out to 600 yards, bullets like the 155 Sierra Palma Matchking, and the soon to be released Tipped Matchking, can be launched fast enough to have an advantage over the heavier bullets. Past that distance, and out to 1000+ yards, bullets like the Berger 185 OTM "Juggernaut", 208 Hornady AMAX, and 215 Berger Hybrid tend to rule the roost.

Especially if you don't intend to use a canted rail, your choice of scope will be critical. Most people look at things like magnification, reticle type, eye relief, objective diameter, and parallax adjustment, while failing to consider available internal adjustment.

For example, the Bushnell scope you mention has a maximum TOTAL of 50" of elevation adjustment @ 100 yards (roughly 50 MOA). That means 25 up and 25 down, IF your scope zeroes at its exact optical center, which rarely happens. So, BEST case scenario gives you 25 MOA of up adjustment, which will not be enough to reach 1000 yards with any bullet from a .308. Even if it could get you there, shooting with your scope adjustments at or near max travel has a number of negative consequences, which I won't go into here (that would take a long, separate write-up).

Without a canted rail, you will need a scope with as much internal adjustment as possible. The class of scope that affords the kind of travel you need tends to be expensive. Nightforce scopes are a good example of this. One budget option is to go with a fixed power Super Sniper scope from SWFA (SWFA SS Classic Riflescopes | SWFA). They also make a mid-priced variable for around double the cost of their fixed power scopes, but still about 30-40% below an entry level Nightforce. They are rugged, no-frills, scopes with repeatable adjustments and around 100 MOA of internal adjustment.

When it comes to making decisions about what bullets to use, the ballistic calculators available online can provide some useful models to help show you what kind of performance you can expect from a given bullet. Here is one that I have found to be very helpful:

JBM - Calculations

Hornady and Berger also host ballistic calculators on their websites.


One final piece of advice that I can give is to encourage you to seek out an F-T/R competition in your area. You can use the rifle you have for F-T/R competition. Though hand loads may be preferable, over-the-counter match ammo will get you in the game to begin with. Pre-season clinics should be starting in March or April. Competing in F-class will teach you a lot about long range fundamentals and do so pretty quickly. There is a wealth of knowledge to be had at an F-Class match and you will likely find a lot of guys who are eager to help someone who is teachable and willing to listen.

 

[roninflag]

Optix- not sure where you are or what you are shooting at. not much to add to benchracer. for me adding a barrel equivalent to the scope you picked would be a high priority. the 308 is shot in competition all the time out to 1000 yards. it is the required round. a look at ballistic table or ap will shoow windage and elevation needed. more than a 30-06, 300 wm or 6.5-284. benchracer- German shot a lot more 308 than 30-06 . the 308 is the required round for palma. G'erman d id a lot load work up with the 30-06 ; he was the only one shooting (or few) it in high power competition. i believe he and i both wanted it authorized to shoot in palma and f-tr. ron

 

[kshunter]

+1 on bench racers advice! I would definitely heed is advice especially regarding optics choice 25 MOA of internal adjustment each way is pretty limiting. I bought a pencil barrel axis in 308 at Walmart on sale last year and it is surprisingly accurate for what it is. It showed signs of some accuracy so I replaced the trigger and with descent optics it has produced 4" groups at 750yds on a consistent basis. Not saying this is the case with all axis rifles but it it definitely something you can learn with! Have fun! By the Long Range Hunting is a slippery slope! It's hard to stop once you start down! Lol

 

[benchracer]

benchracer- German shot a lot more 308 than 30-06 . the 308 is the required round for palma. G'erman d id a lot load work up with the 30-06 ; he was the only one shooting (or few) it in high power competition. i believe he and i both wanted it authorized to shoot in palma and f-tr. ron

I didn't realize that. I got the impression from reading his blog that he mostly shot 30-06. It's pretty neat that you know German Salazar.

 

[Optix]

When it comes to your learning curve, here are a couple of links that are a good place to start:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f5/making-case-308-winchester-michael-eichelle-47586/

.308 Win Cartridge Guide within AccurateShooter.com

Also, check out the writings of LRH member montanamarine. A google search will also yield some of his writings on some other sites like Sniper's Hide. He has done a lot of long range work with the .308 out to, and beyond, 1000 yards. A lot of his work has been from shorter barrels, too, so it should have additional relevance to your equipment.

Another source is a blog written by German Salazar. Though most of his work was done with the 30-06, he has done some writing about the .308 and a lot of the knowledge he shares is also applicable to the .308. His blog is:

The Rifleman's Journal

From what I can tell, your rifle has a 22" barrel with a 1:10 twist. Though a longer barrel is preferred by many for long range work, the .308 is generally not as sensitive to barrel length as many other cartridges are, so the shorter barrel shouldn't be too much of a handicap.

The fact that you have a 10 twist is a very good thing. This will allow you to use some of the latest and very best bullets in the .308. Out to 600 yards, bullets like the 155 Sierra Palma Matchking, and the soon to be released Tipped Matchking, can be launched fast enough to have an advantage over the heavier bullets. Past that distance, and out to 1000+ yards, bullets like the Berger 185 OTM "Juggernaut", 208 Hornady AMAX, and 215 Berger Hybrid tend to rule the roost.

Especially if you don't intend to use a canted rail, your choice of scope will be critical. Most people look at things like magnification, reticle type, eye relief, objective diameter, and parallax adjustment, while failing to consider available internal adjustment.

For example, the Bushnell scope you mention has a maximum TOTAL of 50" of elevation adjustment @ 100 yards (roughly 50 MOA). That means 25 up and 25 down, IF your scope zeroes at its exact optical center, which rarely happens. So, BEST case scenario gives you 25 MOA of up adjustment, which will not be enough to reach 1000 yards with any bullet from a .308. Even if it could get you there, shooting with your scope adjustments at or near max travel has a number of negative consequences, which I won't go into here (that would take a long, separate write-up).

Without a canted rail, you will need a scope with as much internal adjustment as possible. The class of scope that affords the kind of travel you need tends to be expensive. Nightforce scopes are a good example of this. One budget option is to go with a fixed power Super Sniper scope from SWFA (SWFA SS Classic Riflescopes | SWFA). They also make a mid-priced variable for around double the cost of their fixed power scopes, but still about 30-40% below an entry level Nightforce. They are rugged, no-frills, scopes with repeatable adjustments and around 100 MOA of internal adjustment.

When it comes to making decisions about what bullets to use, the ballistic calculators available online can provide some useful models to help show you what kind of performance you can expect from a given bullet. Here is one that I have found to be very helpful:

JBM - Calculations

Hornady and Berger also host ballistic calculators on their websites.


One final piece of advice that I can give is to encourage you to seek out an F-T/R competition in your area. You can use the rifle you have for F-T/R competition. Though hand loads may be preferable, over-the-counter match ammo will get you in the game to begin with. Pre-season clinics should be starting in March or April. Competing in F-class will teach you a lot about long range fundamentals and do so pretty quickly. There is a wealth of knowledge to be had at an F-Class match and you will likely find a lot of guys who are eager to help someone who is teachable and willing to listen.

Wow, that was quite an insightful post. I have to thank you for that, you brought up factors I have not even seen addressed in any of my personal research I've done.ill definitely need your advise and seek out a different scope with greater internal adjustment rather than spending time worrying about what distance to zero at. I realized when I got into this sport that it was quite involved, but I'm still amazed at the other factors I'm constantly learning about. Just glad to have a helpful bunch of people available online to discuss this with!

And I should've mentioned this in the beginning, but it's solely for competition shooting, or at least it will be once I'm a good enough shot, lol. I don't have it in me to kill an animal, so I'm definitely no hunter. And there's no way in hell if I was I'd be trying a Hail Mary shot like this if I was a hunter. The biggest factor for me after the snow clears is where to shoot at, which is the biggest speed bump in my learning. I live within commuting distance to NYC and the longest ranges near me are 200y max. Maybe I'll get lucky and find anger range a few hours away, but I've scoured Find A Range with no luck. I'll definitely look into the F-T/R you mentioned.

Thanks again!

Optix

 

[roninflag]

the rifles they shoot in competition out to 1000 yards are "Built" . amazingly accurate. the barrels are usually 28 to 31" for palma.

 

[Optix]

I didn't realize that. I got the impression from reading his blog that he mostly shot 30-06. It's pretty neat that you know German Salazar.

So I've looked into the pricier scopes and I think they're way more than I'm willing to spend on this hobby. I still am interested in the Bushnell, even though as you mentioned it only has 50 MOA adjustment.

If I go with the Bushnell, I'm guessing I'll need a canted rail for shooting out to 1000y when that time comes. What does that entail? Do you put on the canted rail for shooting super long range and have a straight rail the rest of the time? And how much MOA drop does the canted rail accommodate for? I'll need almost 40MOA with .308 using match grade ammo, as per what I've read, so with 25 MOA adjustment on the Bushnell scope, how would I go about setting up the canted rail?

Thank you again for your help guys. Money is a factor for me, much as I love this sport, I just can't justify spending $1500-2000 or more on a scope. I'm nowhere near the prowess to use it to those distances yet anyway, I'm looking to be cost effective in the meantime.

 

[roninflag]

not sure how much that scope is you picked. it looked like a great one. many good scope from 400 to 600. i use burris zee rings with the inserts to get enough adjustment on several of mine. cheap and easy.