New to reloading and already hit a snag.

[XOOFP]

Hello folks,
I've been gleaning information for your posts for quite a while now, and after years of putting off the inevitable, I have finally decided to take the plunge into reloading. I have purchased most of what I need to get started:
Hornady lock-n-load classic kit and shellholder
Hornady match grade dies (7mm Rem Mag)
Frankford Aresenal overall length gauge
powder (Retumbo)
bullets (Berger 168 vld hunters)
primers (Federal GM215M)
LE Wilson micro meter case trimmer and collet
Sinclair flash hole deburring tool
Lee primer pocket cleaner
Lyman brass tumbler/corn cob media/Lucas media polish
Hornady case overall length comparator set

The first issue I have encountered is trying to choose the neck sizing die bushing for my full length sizing die. I watched to Gunwerks guy's (AAron Davidson) video on this topic. He is loading 7mm 162 SST's in Hornady new brass. He mics a factory loaded case neck and comes up with 0.3175 . He recommends 0.0015 to 0.002 for neck tension, and comes up with a 0.316 bushing. I also watched the Hornady tip video on the subject, so I have an idea of what to do. My problem is I am coming up with much different numbers than he did. I am attempting to reload once fired brass (headstamp reads WW so Winchester I guess) from HSM factory loaded 168 Bergers I have fired from my rifle. I also have some of these factory loads that I have not fired. My caliper gives a loaded neck reading averaging about 0.307. I also have some factory Hornady loaded 162 ELD-X and once fired brass from that load. My calipers give a loaded neck measurement of 0.310 pretty consistently with those.
So my question is why are my readings so much different from Davidson's? Is this range normal? By his math, I would need a bushing size 0.305 in comparison with his 0.316. That just sounds like a big difference to me.
I'm open to any discussion. Thanks in advance!
-Josh

 

[RT2506]

Different makes of cases have different thickness of brass. Winchester is usually the thinnest.

 

[sedancowboy]

I will take a shot at this. Several variables to consider. If you are using Different brands of brass and even different lots then they can be different in size as well. Your numbers do seem a bit off I use a .314 for my 7mm. But I am using Nosler brass. Where on the neck are you measuring? I measure about 1/8 from the case mouth or in the center of the neck not at the case mouth. I also use a good micrometer instead of a caliper. Having said that my calipers measure the same as my mics. You will need to determine the correct bushing for each brand of brass you plan to reload or neck turn them all to one consistent size. Since you don't have a standard non bushing die you will have to rely on the factory rounds to measure the diameter of the neck with a bullet seated. Yes you should buy a bushing about .002 less than the diameter of the loaded round. As you can see there are differences in the diameter of factory ammo which will require you to have different bushing on hand. My starting point is Bullet dia. in this case .284+case neck thickness X2 so .284+.014+.014=.314-.002=.312 bushing. Hope that helps. If all this seems as clear as mud please ask for clarification.

 

[Timeout]

Different makes of cases have different thickness of brass. Winchester is usually the thinnest.

This is correct. Different brass, different neck thickness. Even some variation between same brass kinds. Only way to remedy that is by turning the necks. Maybe this will help you?:
http://redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/140-bushing-selection

 

[ShtrRdy]

I struggle with this too and I've been reloading for many years. I finally decided to pick one brand, and preferably lot/group of brass and get a bushing for it.

The other possibility you might consider is if that die has an expander ball in it you can get a bushing to take care of your smallest diameter aand let the expander ball open the neck back up on the rest.

 

[Adikted]

The reason full length dies use an expander ball is because case neck thickness varies a great deal.

If you're going to use bushing dies you're going to want to turn your necks. There's always going to be variations from case to case even with the same brand and lot. Also there's thick and thin spots that are going to cause the mouth of the case to be slightly out of round. It probably won't matter, and you could probably find a size that works for a given brand but you're missing out on most of the advantages of bushing dies.


I suggest picking up a copy of Mike McPherson's book, Metallic Cartridge Handloading "The persuit of the perfect Cartridge"

 

[just country]

morning, I agree with RT. the brass normally has differences in
thickness. I remove the expander ball from all my FL sizers. I do
not FL my brass unless I have resistance when chambering a fired
round. then I resize. the norm is neck sizing. this is me, what I do.
I prefer Winchester, Lapua and norma brass when possible.
Lapua is very good brass. I have collected numerous reloading manuels, as have others. U HAVE TO READ READ READ AND ALWAY LEARN. b cautious and
have fun. been handloading 40 yrs. still learning. read a book
on machine shop milling rifle barrels practices. purchased a
Handloading Manual of cartridge conversions. GBOT TUM.

 

[XOOFP]

Okay, these responses are clearing things up for me quite a lot. To answer sedancowboy's question, I take my measurement at approximately the midway point between the mouth and the shoulder. So, given the information provided, it looks like I have several options:

1) Attempt to buy a brand of brass in bulk, take a bunch of measurements on the brass thickness at the case mouth, and buy a neck size bushing that would correctly size for the thinnest of the bunch...and stick with that brand...understanding and accepting that neck tension on my loaded rounds will vary somewhat from an ideal of 0.002 to whatever tolerance I decide to allow on the other end (How badly will this affect the precision of my loads at my target max hunting range of 500 yards or my the longer fun shooting ranges of up to 1000 or so?).

2) Learn how to neck turn and cut down the brass with thicker/or varying thickness to create a "standard" for my loading...bushing to match.

3) Sort brass into neck thickness lots and have a bunch of bushings to match whichever lot I am loading at the time.

Would you alter any of the possibilities above or ...am I missing any? Also I am second guessing the quality/accuracy of my calipers. What brands should I be looking at for a dependable set or at what price range, generally speaking?

Oh and on non-bushing dies, what standard does the die size the neck to? I guess there is an expander ball that opens the case mouth to caliber as the case exits the die which is actually what results in the final neck diameter?
Thanks for the help!

 

[Timeout]

Sounds like you're right on. Being new at reloading, I would probably recommend option 1 for now. Somewhere down the line, jump to option 2. Realize that reloading will not save you money, but with knowledge and proper equipment, you can manufacture precise ammunition!

 

[bigedp51]

A Forster 7mm bushing bump die comes with three bushings, .308, .306, .304. Meaning these three bushings should put you very close with any brand of brass.
https://www.forsterproducts.com/product/bushing-bump-neck-sizing-die-kits-with-3-neck-bushings/

Redding bushing dies come with a expander for people who do not neck turn.

At the Whidden custom die website they sell expander kits with 5 expanders. These expanders are from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter.

At the Whidden website they also tell you they get the most concentric cases using non-bushing full length dies.

Expanders are not the end of the world that some reloaders say they are, and using dry powdered graphite "inside" the case neck works wonders. Meaning do not drag a expander through a unlubed case neck.

Out of all the types of dies I have the Forster full length benchrest dies with their high mounted floating expander produce cases with the least bullet runout. And Forster and Redding benchrest seating dies can even correct neck runout with their inline seating.

When you reduce neck diameter .004 or more with a bushing die you will induce neck runout. And if reducing neck diameter over .004 it is recommended to reduce the neck diameter in two steps.

Bottom line, bushing dies work best with custom tight neck chambers and off the shelf factory rifles will let the case neck expand way over .004.

I urge you to join the "Rat turd in the violin case" club and take the advice of two Lapua USA Shooters.

Below Kevin Thomas of Team Lapua USA and who worked in the Sierra ballistic test lab.
Click on image to enlarge

Below Erik Cortina of Team Lapua USA

 

[Lonewolf74]

Big Ed I was gonna recommend the same thing but for a different reason. I would recommend starting out full length sizing because your eliminating a lot of variables that neck sizing introduces. Just get the hang of the whole process first and learn what you can. In the future if your not satisfied with your accuracy or what ever then dabble in neck sizing and all that.

 

[bigedp51]

If you remove the expander from a full length die the resized case will be as straight and concentric as it ever will be. The problem with the average expander is it can be locked down off center and induce neck runout. With the Forster full length die the high mounted expander floats and enters the case neck while it is held and centered in the neck of the die.

The problem with standard neck sizing dies is the case body is not fully supporting the case body and can cause neck runout. And when you add a bushing to a neck sizing die the bushing can move from side to side and even tilt.

So a full length resized case is more concentric with the least amount of neck runout. And you can use a Forster die, or any FL die and use a expander die, or a body die with a Lee collet die.

Bottom line, with the Forster full length benchrest die you only size the case once with the same or less neck runout as the other methods above.

Also Forster is the only die manufacture that will hone the neck of their dies to your desired diameter.

The problem I have with neck sizing dies and bushing dies is I get more neck runout with them than with the Forster full length dies.

Below are a Forster full length die and their benchrest seating die that greatly reduce neck and bullet runout.

Below the Forster and Redding benchrest seating dies have the ability to even correct neck runout.

Reloading: Seating Die Runout
Seating Die Induced Runout
A Comparison by Germán A. Salazar

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwi-7MTknfvXAhUM84MKHRCCBNcQFggnMAA&url=http://www.uniquetek.com/store/696296/uploaded/Reloading-Seating-Die-Runout.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0PTrUzbIFGXpTquMkz6CtT

 

[Adikted]

Out of all the types of dies I have the Forster full length benchrest dies with their high mounted floating expander produce cases with the least bullet runout. And Forster and Redding benchrest seating dies can even correct neck runout with their inline seating.

When you reduce neck diameter .004 or more with a bushing die you will induce neck runout. And if reducing neck diameter over .004 it is recommended to reduce the neck diameter in two steps.

Bottom line, bushing dies work best with custom tight neck chambers and off the shelf factory rifles will let the case neck expand way over .004.

+1 on the Forester bench rest dies, when I first tried neck sizing with a bushing die it was a Forester bushing bump die. The rifle I had was headspaced within 1/1000th of minimum. After working with some fired brass and a comperator to get the bump die set to knock the shoulders back just enough that all the cases were the same I wound up producing brass at exactly the same dimensions that the full length die did without all of the work.

I haven't pulled that bushing die out of the box since.

As far as neck turning is concerned it's not hard to do but honestly you'll not likely see much difference down range. I only do it on cases that I'm try to get down to single digit SD, and I don't believe that it's ever been the determining factor.

The one thing that neck turning did help me to see is how consistent the wall diameter is on my brass (by seeing how much I had to trim to get rid of the high spots)

All of this stuff is more advanced reloading, plenty of people produce 1/2 moa ammo without doing any of it.

 

[Adikted]

If you put an o-ring on your decaping stem between the lock nut and the die body it gives the expander a little play so that your press can pull it through on a straight line, I do it with my redding dies it seems to help the runout a little

Can't do it with Hornaday dies because the decapper doesn't thread in its held via compression