new and trying to build

[woolecox]

If money is tight, think about your range finding capabilities, a few yards error can cause a miss easily. The heavier cartridges (like the 300RUM) can cover up some smaller errors in wind reading and ranging.

Yes, I have yet to find a range finder that the average man can afford that will accurately range a deer sized target out to 1000 yards. Maybe my Leupold is just a dud but it wont even range a tree beyond 300 yards.

Any suggestions?

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Woolecox,

I agree with your comparison of calibers but I will stick with what I said. In most cases you are right. My point is some get stuck on ballistic charts as I did 40 years ago. Now I have vast experience in what actually kills stuff better and there are some glitches in the ballistic charts. We are talking about elk hunting and large calibers are by far and away the best overall killers on elk. That comes from a vast amount of experience showing me that is fact. It is not an opinion. I don't care what the ballistic charts say because this is what I have learned. I am not trying to pick a fight on here with anyone and respect your opinion as well and appreciate your response. That is what this forum is all about and what makes it great. I have near 40 years of elk hunting experience and through hunting, guiding and filming have seen hundreds of elk taken with everything you could imagine. The facts I have learned are clear. They are not opinion.

If I were this gentleman I would go up to the 338 winchester which is essentially the same case as the 7mm remington. This rifle is an elk rifle. It will shoot a 210 swift scirroco with a .507 BC at over 3000 fps and perform better on elk than a 7mm rem mag. This load can be shot by most without a brake very accurately. The 225 accubond with a .565 BC can be shot at over 2900 fps but the recoil starts to be felt at this point without a brake. In my opinion the 7mm rem mag is at best a 600 yard elk rifle. The 338 winchester with these loads would be much better on elk within this range or further. If I had a trophy bull out there at 650 yards and my choice between the two rifles I would take either of these quality hunting bullet loads over anything in a 7mm rem mag.

 

[woolecox]

That is what this forum is all about and what makes it great. I have near 40 years of elk hunting experience and through hunting, guiding and filming have seen hundreds of elk taken with everything you could imagine. The facts I have learned are clear. They are not opinion.

Well said and I agree. In your 40 years of elk hunting, how many kills have you seen in excess of 600 yards?

 

[woolecox]

In my opinion the 7mm rem mag is at best a 600 yard elk rifle. The 338 Winchester with these loads would be much better on elk within this range or further. If I had a trophy bull out there at 650 yards and my choice between the two rifles I would take either of these quality hunting bullet loads over anything in a 7mm rem mag.

I truly respect your opinion and years of experience. I ran the following loads on my LoadBase 2.0 program and here are two graph results for the following loads:

Track 1 (red)= 7mm Rem Mag, Berger VLD 168 gr.
Track 2 (green)= 338 Win Mag, Swift Scirocco 210 gr.
Both are max published loads.

You can see that the 7mm maintains a velocity advantage over the 338 out to 1000 yards and beyond. Which means it shoots flatter. Then, looking at the energy chart, at about 450 yards the 7mm actually "out runs" the 338 and gains an energy advantage over the 338. This is due to the higher velocity and BC of the two bullets.

So for long range shooting in excess of 450 yards, the 7mm would clearly be the better choice. That is why GunWerks chambers their high dollar precision long range rifle (LR-1000) in 7mm Mag and not 338 Win Mag. It is simply one of the best choices for delivering high energy at long ranges that the human shoulder can endure.

This is the reason why I invested in this ballistics program.

 

[ds1304]

WOW I mean WOW, they told me this site was good but man, I never expected this. I got the feed back I was looking for. You guys are AWESOME, Thank You to all who have given input on my new build. You have given me a serious amount of knowledge through all of your years of experience. Thank You again, this has been just a phenominal amount of information to obsorb, and you cannot believe how much I appreciate it.

I know every time I go out and hunt for big game here on out, I will do so in your honor. This is great, absolutely awesome help, I cannot thank each of you enough. When my rifle is done I will not forget where I received input for the build and how to build it. Thanks guys, and really, keep up the great work of input to all. This was sooo cool.

 

[angus-5024]

I have never shot and elk, so maybe my opinion isnt worth much. With my understanding of ballistics I would say that neither the 7mm Rem or the .338 Win mag have the knock down power to be a good 1000 yard elk rifle. I know that people do shoot elk at that range with lesser but I feel that there are better choices. Some guys will wait for that ablsolutely perfect shot and nock em' down with a 6.5-.284 or .264 win, and kudos to them. I wouldnt do it because of a lack of experience, and from the sounds of it your starting in on the LR scene too. like AJ says "If some is good, and more is better, then too much is just right". shoot as much gun as your comfortable with and dont strech the capability of the cartrige. For me the .338 RUM is the answer, but I wouldnt be comfortable shooting at any game at that didtance yet. As far as a rifle goes I would probably get a savage and thread on a new heavt barrel in .338 RUM. the new ones look like they should do well for the money. Look at the stuff that Shawn Carlock and Kirby Allen are shooting for these applications. they go big because it is better (if you can shoot it accurately). If the recoil is too much go heavier and put a brake on it.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Thanks for posting your figures. This proves one of the glitches I was talking about. From experience I do not consider the 168 Berger or the 7mm rem mag good elk choices. At any of those ranges you show, the effect of the 338 caliber 225 accubond on the elk at over 2900 fps muzzle velocity would be far greater than the 7mm rem mag and would give you the best opportunity for collecting your elk. Ballistics are a great tool but not the only tool. Field testing is also just as critical to show some of the falacies of the ballistics programs. As you gain experience you begin to understand better how to use all of those loading manuals figures and info and how to better put them into perspective.

I guarantee the 7mm rem mag is not in the league of the 338 winchester when animals the size of elk are considered. The 7mm rem mag is a very good deer, antelope, caribou rifle. The 7mm rem mag with a 168 berger is not even a good choice for long range elk and certainly not the best choice.

How much actual elk or big game experience are you basing your choice on? You sound like me over 30 years ago trying to argue my 7mm-300 wby ballistics to Elmer Keith. He was a wise old man who knew what killed elk and large game best. I was a young ballistics guru who had taken a few elk at long range. He also knew, I am sure, that if I continued elk hunting I would also learn what was best. I knew several guys who loved and swore by the 7mm-300 in those days including me. I had taken elk well beyond a thousand yards with mine in the 70's at the same spot I have offered to carry a long range elk hunt off the forum for next year. We were using the 175 sierra game king which was the highest BC available in the caliber at the time. Still a great long range 7mm bullet. It is quite a bit more rifle than the 7mm rem mag. I also took elk at over a thousand yards with the 270 wby in that spot. We all found many years ago that neither were very good choices and our dependency on the ballistics charts caused us problems until our experience in the field matured. Within 2-4 years every one of us were using the 340 wby Elmer had recomended. He was right about the larger 338 caliber and it's effects on elk no matter what I tried to argue with him concerning ballistics.

Now that I have taken more trophy elk beyond 600 yards than most people will ever see total in a lifetime I also have a very good perspective on what is the best as Elmer did.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Listen to Anguss and AJ. Anguss, that is well stated and excellent advice.

 

[woolecox]

I wouldnt do it because of a lack of experience, and from the sounds of it your starting in on the LR scene too.

Me neither. I have been hunting and shooting for 42 years now. My longest kill or even shot at a game animal has been less than 400 yards (as best I can recall). Never had to shoot farther nor do I plan on taking one longer on a game animal. I guess I have enough experience not to. Hell my 7mm drifts over 6 feet in just a 10 mph crosswind at 1000 yards. My 300 is about the same. 308 or 270? Worse.

Paper on the range is a different story. We have a very fine range out to 1000 yards. All of the long range shooters and top F Class and open competitors use the ballistics programs very effectively to dial in their shots and dope the wind. That is were I learned it.

I still have some unanswered questions on this thread;

What do you use to range out to these vast distances?

How do you determine your holdover or clicks without ballistics tables?