Paulstarr
Well-Known Member
Sorry John I misunderstood what you wanted to do,I agree with you there is no need to convert.
Mil vs MOA
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I ended up moving from MOA to Mil this year on the scopes that I use hunting or comp. It has been a little bit of a learning curve but the options on reticles and scopes along with resale is just better. I was trying to resist the move but just made sense.
Hugnot
Well-Known Member
Depends....
the math being:
pi = 3.14
the range is = the radius of a circle
360 degrees * 60 min/per degree = 21,600 minutes in a circle
the circumference of a circle = 2 * pi * radius
for a 100 yard circle: circumference in inches = 2 * 3.14 * 3600 = 22,608
1 true MOA at 100 yards = 22,608/21,600 = 1.047 inches
1 true MOA at 600 yards = (2 * 3.14 * 21,600) / 21,600 = 6.28 inches
1 true MOA at 1000 yards = (2 * 3.14 * 36,000 ) / 21,600 = 10.47 inches
What if a scope maker decides to make scopes using exactly 4 clicks for 1" @ 100, 1/4 " per click; 4 clicks for 6" @ 600, 1.5" per click; 4 clicks for 10" @1000, 2.5" per click.
Then mark the dials on the scope "1/4 MOA" then shows 4 spaces between drum hash marks. This would simplify shooting at targets having known diameter features like 5" X rings @ 1,000 yards.
But what if a shooter is some Euro guy that has been using the metric system since age 6?
1 mrad = 10 cm @ 100 meters
1 mrad = 50 cm @ 500 meters
1 mrad = 100 cm @ 1 klick (1,000 meters)
The scope has .1 mrad clicks so:
1 click = 1 cm @ 100M, 5 cm @ 500M, 10 cm @ 1 klick (1000 meters)
1 inch = 2.54 cm
so:
100 meters 1 click = .39 inches, 500 meters 1 click = 1.97 inches, 1 klick 1 click = 3.94 inches
the mrad system may be used with inches & yards, like 500 yards, (500 * 36) /1,000 = 18 inches between mil dots.
for shooting at paper targets at known ranges, I like MOA's
for field shooting I like mrad scopes having .1 rad adjustments and mrad reticles (mil dots)
the math being:
pi = 3.14
the range is = the radius of a circle
360 degrees * 60 min/per degree = 21,600 minutes in a circle
the circumference of a circle = 2 * pi * radius
for a 100 yard circle: circumference in inches = 2 * 3.14 * 3600 = 22,608
1 true MOA at 100 yards = 22,608/21,600 = 1.047 inches
1 true MOA at 600 yards = (2 * 3.14 * 21,600) / 21,600 = 6.28 inches
1 true MOA at 1000 yards = (2 * 3.14 * 36,000 ) / 21,600 = 10.47 inches
What if a scope maker decides to make scopes using exactly 4 clicks for 1" @ 100, 1/4 " per click; 4 clicks for 6" @ 600, 1.5" per click; 4 clicks for 10" @1000, 2.5" per click.
Then mark the dials on the scope "1/4 MOA" then shows 4 spaces between drum hash marks. This would simplify shooting at targets having known diameter features like 5" X rings @ 1,000 yards.
But what if a shooter is some Euro guy that has been using the metric system since age 6?
1 mrad = 10 cm @ 100 meters
1 mrad = 50 cm @ 500 meters
1 mrad = 100 cm @ 1 klick (1,000 meters)
The scope has .1 mrad clicks so:
1 click = 1 cm @ 100M, 5 cm @ 500M, 10 cm @ 1 klick (1000 meters)
1 inch = 2.54 cm
so:
100 meters 1 click = .39 inches, 500 meters 1 click = 1.97 inches, 1 klick 1 click = 3.94 inches
the mrad system may be used with inches & yards, like 500 yards, (500 * 36) /1,000 = 18 inches between mil dots.
for shooting at paper targets at known ranges, I like MOA's
for field shooting I like mrad scopes having .1 rad adjustments and mrad reticles (mil dots)
Paulstarr
Well-Known Member
The best thing to do is work in one or the other, it easier.
Nice maths,I'll just add there are 6,283.185 mil/rads in a circle usually rounded up to 6,284.I'm like you MOA for me.
Nice maths,I'll just add there are 6,283.185 mil/rads in a circle usually rounded up to 6,284.I'm like you MOA for me.
Not 100% correct! There are 25.4mm per inch and a meter is about 10% longer than a yard. Even though 1 click (.1 click value) in mil is .36" and you are a math person like I am then converting comes easy. I like using both for knowledge when it may arise. I do have some mils in .05" (0.18") that makes it finer than 1/4moa. I also have 1/8moa scopes. Too each is own as it goes. 3 clicks of .1mil and 4 clicks of 1/4moa are almost identical (1.08 in mil and 1.047 in moa). Easy enough for me too remember and shoot.
ATH
Well-Known Member
Just pick one and stay with it. It doesn't matter.
Myself and a buddy have always been MOA but he put a MIL scope on a long range gun. Led to unnecessary drama and confusion. Nothing made sense to the MOA brains. There's no concrete advantage to MIL. Just pick the convention of your choice and stick with it across rifles.
Myself and a buddy have always been MOA but he put a MIL scope on a long range gun. Led to unnecessary drama and confusion. Nothing made sense to the MOA brains. There's no concrete advantage to MIL. Just pick the convention of your choice and stick with it across rifles.
Hugnot
Well-Known Member
2 Pi rad does 360*. Pi = 3.14159
No concrete advantage to confusion!
No concrete advantage to confusion!
Benman73
Well-Known Member
This post is ridiculous.
OP if you are doing math, or trying to convert anything while shooting, you are doing it wrong. Read your reticle, dial as needed. Doesn't matter if it's mils or moa.
Hugnot
Well-Known Member
Don't matter if target has powder burns on it.
This forum is for Extreme Long Range Shooting, thus more than "Read your reticle, dial as needed" knowing how something works is no liability.
This forum is for Extreme Long Range Shooting, thus more than "Read your reticle, dial as needed" knowing how something works is no liability.
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Hugnot
Well-Known Member
For those who don't have pocket calculators, tablets or smart phones.
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I agree with Benman73 that this post is ridiculous. IF it's a scope with a scaled reticle. Unfortunately too many people are going Mil's by buying a Mil-dot type scope and trying to figure it out. OP never said what kind of scope he's got. To the OP (and others!), in this day and age, spend the money on a scope, whether it's MOA or MIL (either one), with a scaled reticle. AND, do NOT buy one with turrets different than the reticle. Then shoot and you don't have to figure anything! Just measure with the scaled reticle and you're done. It doesn't get any easier than that.
Got a buddy that just bought an RPR/6.5CM. I sold him an Athlon Ares BTR 4.5-27 Mil reticle scope to get started with. He absolutely loves it. Never shot mil before, just MOA, had no idea what to expect. He was amazed at how easy it is to adjust. Doesn't matter the distance, just measure on the scale how far off you are, and adjust your turret that much. Easy. IF you have the scaled reticle.
Got a buddy that just bought an RPR/6.5CM. I sold him an Athlon Ares BTR 4.5-27 Mil reticle scope to get started with. He absolutely loves it. Never shot mil before, just MOA, had no idea what to expect. He was amazed at how easy it is to adjust. Doesn't matter the distance, just measure on the scale how far off you are, and adjust your turret that much. Easy. IF you have the scaled reticle.
ATH
Well-Known Member
Gotta say...in this day and age of amazing and affordable laser rangefinders....given this is an "extreme long range" forum including hunting...if you are using your reticle to estimate range to game for "extreme long range" hunting vs said rangefinder....why??? Why introduce such significant error?
mbaysinger89
Well-Known Member
Its not necessarily about ranging, atleast I dont think anybody is saying that, although it is easier to range in mils. Its about a 2 mil or 2 moa hold being a 2 mil or 2 moa hold all the time at all magnifications. Not 2 mil at 24 power or 1 mil at 12 power, or trying to figure how many mil or moa your last shot was off at 700 when you think i missed 12" low. You use the reticle as a ruler if you were 2 mil low you hold or dial 2 mil and shoot. Modern reticles are literally just a ruler projected in front of your eye. So exactly why guess when you can measure.
Hugnot
Well-Known Member
What's the problem? Use the laser range finder with the wonder scope having first focal plane reticle, but be prepared the work around a problem laser range finder in cold temps that gives inaccurate or no results. Be prepared to come up with a solution for up-hill or down-hill shooting should the laser range finder have cold temp problems for inclined range determination .
for shooting at paper targets at known ranges, I like MOA's Some MOA scopes are made so 1/4 click is exactly 1/4 inch at 100, not 1.04/4 or 2.6" at 1,000. A 1/10 inch is tiny at 1,000 but when a sight correction calls for 15 clicks, 39 inches happen instead of 37.5 and the 1,000 X ring measures 5".
For field shooting I like mrad scopes having .1 rad adjustments and mrad reticles (mil dots) - the nice reticle gives me an idea how big things are out there, A mil dot scope having 10 marked spaces between mil dots is still a mil dot scope and works just great with .1 mil adjustments. The Christmas tree feature is nice for wind. A radian being a logical measurement of a circles radius being placed on a part of a circle's circumference.
I like 16 X fixed power mil dot scopes having .1 mil adjustments, no tiny little reticle features at low power or un-useable ones except for selected power settings. 18" at 500, 36" at 1,000 between mil dots. How many shots will it take to hit the target?
Figuring out & using the mil or moa business is ridiculously easy math and familiarity might prevent long range screw-ups. Like on a really cold morning the laser range finder has problems and does not work or finally comes up with 875 yards but 12 spaces on the .1 mil space reticle cover a 4 foot wide object, meaning that the range = 48 * 27.8 / 1.2 = 1,112 yards. 1000/36 = 27.8. A mil dot reticle is a useful backup tool for a device that might fail. Cold is not nice to batteries. The size of the object at 1,112 yards = (1,112 / 27.8) * 1.2 = 48. Could the laser range finder determine the size of the object, like shoot the biggest one. Sometimes rail road ties placed 4 feet apart are used at the ends or corners of barbed wire fences.
for shooting at paper targets at known ranges, I like MOA's Some MOA scopes are made so 1/4 click is exactly 1/4 inch at 100, not 1.04/4 or 2.6" at 1,000. A 1/10 inch is tiny at 1,000 but when a sight correction calls for 15 clicks, 39 inches happen instead of 37.5 and the 1,000 X ring measures 5".
For field shooting I like mrad scopes having .1 rad adjustments and mrad reticles (mil dots) - the nice reticle gives me an idea how big things are out there, A mil dot scope having 10 marked spaces between mil dots is still a mil dot scope and works just great with .1 mil adjustments. The Christmas tree feature is nice for wind. A radian being a logical measurement of a circles radius being placed on a part of a circle's circumference.
I like 16 X fixed power mil dot scopes having .1 mil adjustments, no tiny little reticle features at low power or un-useable ones except for selected power settings. 18" at 500, 36" at 1,000 between mil dots. How many shots will it take to hit the target?
Figuring out & using the mil or moa business is ridiculously easy math and familiarity might prevent long range screw-ups. Like on a really cold morning the laser range finder has problems and does not work or finally comes up with 875 yards but 12 spaces on the .1 mil space reticle cover a 4 foot wide object, meaning that the range = 48 * 27.8 / 1.2 = 1,112 yards. 1000/36 = 27.8. A mil dot reticle is a useful backup tool for a device that might fail. Cold is not nice to batteries. The size of the object at 1,112 yards = (1,112 / 27.8) * 1.2 = 48. Could the laser range finder determine the size of the object, like shoot the biggest one. Sometimes rail road ties placed 4 feet apart are used at the ends or corners of barbed wire fences.
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