Melting/deforming Poly tips in flight.

[BergerBoy]

Thanks to WildRose for showing that post on Hornadys new line of Bullets- the ELD-X.

I was very interested in them and started to do a little research, what little information that was out there....

According to Hornady all Polymer tips "melt" and "deform" do to heat caused by air friction and heat generated from the shot itself and the longer time of flight the worse it gets. According to them the BC of the bullet drops big time from where it should be and of course- inconsistency with a BC is bad news for any long range shot.

My question is this: What about Nosler? Scirocco? Hornady (A-max) and others? All of them use standard poly tips. I wonder if this is a real issue? Has anyone ever notice anything that would support the video? I always shot Berger but just recently developed a load for my 300 wm with the 208 A-max so I will try to test this theory the best I can before winter hits. If what Hornady is saying is true this is a BIG deal concerning long range accuracy.

If anyone knows Brian Litz will you ask him what his thoughts are?

What do you guys think about all this?

Thank you for your time.

 

[liltank]

Look Brian up on accurateshooter.com. He has his own forum on that sight.

 

[Pdvdh]

Thanks to WildRose for showing that post on Hornadys new line of Bullets- the ELD-X.

If anyone knows Brian Litz will you ask him what his thoughts are?

What do you guys think about all this?

Thank you for your time.

This may be dicey for Bryan to jump into because of his business ties to Berger Bullets. I wouldn't expect him to join the fray other than in a casual manner. The issue doesn't affect Berger bullets, since they don't manufacture polymer tipped bullets, to the best of my knowledge.

With respect to Bryan's reference BC values for the polymer bullets, he may post that he doesn't typically record bullet velocity at 800yds and farther for purposes of determining bullet BC values. Therefore his reference BC values weren't recording the lower velocities of the polymer tipped bullets that only begins to become really evident / pronounced at the longer ranges. Just my thoughts and opinion on this...

 

[Mike 338]

I think it's hard to prove they're melting but it makes sense that through testing, if one tip demonstrates erratic results and another tip does not, then something is going on with the tip. I think that Hornady would never make such a claim if they did not do some fairly extensive testing. I suspect there's some truth what they're saying. How much of a difference it makes remains to be seen. A rifle still needs to like a bullet so a great tip on a bullet that won't fly well in your gun is not the answer. Just gotta wait and see. Fortunately, we're not just stuck with marketing hype anymore as a reference to certain products.

 

[BergerBoy]

I think it's hard to prove they're melting but it makes sense that through testing, if one tip demonstrates erratic results and another tip does not, then something is going on with the tip. I think that Hornady would never make such a claim if they did not do some fairly extensive testing. I suspect there's some truth what they're saying. How much of a difference it makes remains to be seen. A rifle still needs to like a bullet so a great tip on a bullet that won't fly well in your gun is not the answer. Just gotta wait and see. Fortunately, we're not just stuck with marketing hype anymore as a reference to certain products.

I agree with you. Hornady from what I found is changing the tips on all their bullets that have poly-tips.


Phorwath, I think you are correct about Brian. Maybe I can get an answer out of him at SHOT.

 

[Michael Eichele]

My question is this: Has anyone ever notice anything that would support the video? I always shot Berger but just recently developed a load for my 300 wm with the 208 A-max so I will try to test this theory the best I can before winter hits. If what Hornady is saying is true this is a BIG deal concerning long range accuracy.

What do you guys think about all this?

Thank you for your time.

I have fired more 178 AMAXs than any other bullet both for practice and overall ballistic testing for my own personal gratification. I don't know if that makes me qualified to offer any opinions here but I'll offer some possible evidence to support Hornady's claims.

The attached picture shows both new and fired 178 AMAXs.

308 Win 5R. 2550'/sec MV. Distance 650 yards.

What I do know is that the 178 starts strong and while all bullet's BCs degrade over time due to decaying velocity, the 178's BC decays VERY rapidly past 600 yards. Much faster than many other bullets of similar weight. Now I know that the 178 AMAX is far from sleek compared to many other bullet lines but neither is the 175 SMK, however the 175 SMK's BC doesn't decay nearly as bad as the 178 AMAX.

Between the bullet pictured here and the rapid decay rate of the 178 AMAX, I'm inclined to believe what Hornady is saying.

You be the judge.

M

 

[Axl]

This may be dicey for Bryan to jump into because of his business ties to Berger Bullets. I wouldn't expect him to join the fray other than in a casual manner. The issue doesn't affect Berger bullets, since they don't manufacture polymer tipped bullets, to the best of my knowledge.

With respect to Bryan's reference BC values for the polymer bullets, he may post that he doesn't typically record bullet velocity at 800yds and farther for purposes of determining bullet BC values. Therefore his reference BC values weren't recording the lower velocities of the polymer tipped bullets that only begins to become really evident / pronounced at the longer ranges. Just my thoughts and opinion on this...

Brian wrote about this on accurate shooter

 

[Mike 338]

I have fired more 178 AMAXs than any other bullet both for practice and overall ballistic testing for my own personal gratification. I don't know if that makes me qualified to offer any opinions here but I'll offer some possible evidence to support Hornady's claims.

The attached picture shows both new and fired 178 AMAXs.

308 Win 5R. 2550'/sec MV. Distance 650 yards.

What I do know is that the 178 starts strong and while all bullet's BCs degrade over time due to decaying velocity, the 178's BC decays VERY rapidly past 600 yards. Much faster than many other bullets of similar weight. Now I know that the 178 AMAX is far from sleek compared to many other bullet lines but neither is the 175 SMK, however the 175 SMK's BC doesn't decay nearly as bad as the 178 AMAX.

Between the bullet pictured here and the rapid decay rate of the 178 AMAX, I'm inclined to believe what Hornady is saying.

You be the judge.

M

Did you get that bullet from JFK's gurney?

 

[WildRose]

Deforming tips are something I've wondered/worried about for as long as I've been shooting.

Until now we really didn't have a way to prove how much deformation was occurring or just how great an effect it had on accuracy at med/long range.

The new doppler radar gives the manufacturers a tool that just didn't exist before and I have little doubt that it will change the long range game considerably for the future.

 

[royinidaho]

I'm onboard with Hornady's findings. They appear to be quite thorough in their research and documentation of results.

I'm irked that they have no heat tolerant tips in 277 or 375 but can get along without them.

I'm thinking that further improvement would be achieved with replacement of any plastic type tip with a correctly formed and fitted brass tip. I suppose that would increase the cost too much.

 

[WildRose]

I'm onboard with Hornady's findings. They appear to be quite thorough in their research and documentation of results.

I'm irked that they have no heat tolerant tips in 277 or 375 but can get along without them.

I'm thinking that further improvement would be achieved with replacement of any plastic type tip with a correctly formed and fitted brass tip. I suppose that would increase the cost too much.

It's certainly not a cheap way to go but that's what Perigrine does with their Plainsmaster bullets.

After some problems with the Swift SiroccoII's over expanding on African game my buddy there had me try some factory ammo loaded with the Perigrine bullets and I was really impressed with them.

They are now starting to expand into the US Market and for particularly tough animals like Elk and Big bears it might just be the way to go at least for now.

Buy PlainsMaster Bullets For Reloading - Peregrine Bullets

 

[BergerBoy]

Deforming tips are something I've wondered/worried about for as long as I've been shooting.


The new doppler radar gives the manufacturers a tool that just didn't exist before and I have little doubt that it will change the long range game considerably for the future.

I don't know how you can say that it will not change long range hunting much? (if you shoot poly-tips) We are always looking for that "edge" that is needed to bring down game at longer and longer distances and if there is tangible data/research that shows the bullet you may be hunting with is flawed then why not change or at least look into it? Right? Science has progressed and moved long range hunting/sniping out so much farther just in the last 10-15 years.... it's really amazing when you think about it...

How many of us shoot Barnes, Nosler, A-maxs, etc...? Any and all poly-tip bullets will be deemed "obsolete" for long range hunting don't you think?
Most of us have gotten good result with the poly-tips currently out so maybe it won't change many peoples mind's but it certainly has my attention. JMO.

 

[WildRose]

I don't know how you can say that it will not change long range hunting much? (if you shoot poly-tips) We are always looking for that "edge" that is needed to bring down game at longer and longer distances and if there is tangible data/research that shows the bullet you may be hunting with is flawed then why not change or at least look into it? Right? Science has progressed and moved long range hunting/sniping out so much farther just in the last 10-15 years.... it's really amazing when you think about it...

How many of us shoot Barnes, Nosler, A-maxs, etc...? Any and all poly-tip bullets will be deemed "obsolete" for long range hunting don't you think?
Most of us have gotten good result with the poly-tips currently out so maybe it won't change many peoples mind's but it certainly has my attention. JMO.

You misread me.

I have little doubt, meaning high confidence that it will be a major game changer.

Just think of all the time and money that many of us have poured into load development over the years and then been frustrated to no end that our calculated data just would not match up to the real world data we were recording when verifying our drops?

This tool will enable us to get very close to actual bc's to start with saving a great deal of time and money.

I also know of a couple of other new products that should be hitting the US market in the next year that should be just as if not more exciting.

What we think of today a "might be possible" five years from now will be the common place.

Guys just coming up into the long range game today have such a wealth of information and technology at their fingertips that simply didn't exist just a decade ago and that was leaps and bounds beyond what we had just 20-30 years ago.

 

[HARPERC]

..........After some problems with the Swift SiroccoII's over expanding on African game ............

In the end terminal performance, is what will matter to me.

I "think" we may see some improvement shot to shot, both in accuracy, and results.

While I use tipped bullets mostly, I can see some of the issues are real, but I'm a little skeptical another polymer is the answer. I would prefer a "bronze point", or something like it. I'd also like to see some work done with the other end of the tip. Does the material, or how deeply it sits in the bullet effect terminal performance?

I know that I have enough bullets on the shelf someone else will have to experiment with these.

I appreciate the fact, that in spite of being able to sell their product faster than the can make them, Hornady is taking time to look at the market, and improve their product.