Lyman manual cast and smokeless data for 45-70/45-90

[Tac-O]

I have the Lyman 50th manual and have been planning to load some smokeless cast rounds for my new Winchester 1886 in 45-90.

I am wondering if the cast and smokeless load data that is in the Lyman for this cartridge would require fillers in the case for safe use? Surely not... I think I read earlier in the book a statement about never doing that.

Anyway, I have a 405gr cast bullet that is very similar to the Lyman 457193 pattern. It might actually be the same. It's MBC's buffalo#1 bullet. I was planning to use some 4198 that I have. Even though they don't have this bullet listed for the 45-90, they have data for a similar 400gr bullet. When looking at the 45-70 data the data for that 400gr bullet is very very similar to the Lyman 405gr bullet. So, I figured it should also be very similar in in the 45-90. I measured out their starting charge today to see what case fill would look like and it's a pretty poor case fill with a large amount of space between powder and bullet. I would expect poor velocity spreads with so much space, but it is of course a safe load without using a filler for the exact bullet, powder, etc listed, correct?

 

[memtb]

4198 is one of the highly praised powders for the 45-70.....no mention of fillers! With the 45-90.....I'll abstain from comment! memtb

 

[bpcrshooter]

is it an original?? if so stay with LOW pressure loads, if of new make you can use the Mid range (lever gun) loads. That cartridge was meant to be loaded with BP not smokeless. AA5744 no need for fillers.

 

[Orange Dust]

is it an original?? if so stay with LOW pressure loads, if of new make you can use the Mid range (lever gun) loads. That cartridge was meant to be loaded with BP not smokeless. AA5744 no need for fillers.

5744 is most likely the most versatile powder on the planet. There is a suitable load for every rifle cartridge and magnum handguns. Every handloader should have an 8# jug of the stuff laying around. It is also THE powder for teaching kids to shoot with reduced loads. They can be very successful hunting with them too. If I was the OP I would try this powder if someone has concocted a load for it.

 

[Tac-O]

is it an original?? if so stay with LOW pressure loads, if of new make you can use the Mid range (lever gun) loads. That cartridge was meant to be loaded with BP not smokeless. AA5744 no need for fillers.

5744 is most likely the most versatile powder on the planet. There is a suitable load for every rifle cartridge and magnum handguns. Every handloader should have an 8# jug of the stuff laying around. It is also THE powder for teaching kids to shoot with reduced loads. They can be very successful hunting with them too. If I was the OP I would try this powder if someone has concocted a load for it.

Yes it is a new mfg rifle. So it's a miroku 1886, although I prefer new mfg Winchester 1886 haha.

I also have some 5744 that I'll be trying too, but the same issue applies. 5744 is a little more dense than the 4198.

I'll post a couple of pictures of the data I'm looking at for more clarification

 

[Tac-O]

Here's the data I was looking at

45-70 (new levers)

45-90 (new levers)

45-100

I don't believe there would be published data if extra space in the case was an issue for safety reasons.

I guess we'll see if the speeds are consistent at all!


And yes... I do plan on pushing some BP out if this gun! I just don't have lube or wads yet

 

[bpcrshooter]

I would start at 40gr of 5744 in your 90.....I use 36in my 45-100 sharps with a 405gc, and it drives tacks! Being a newly manufactured rifle you can push those to 40k for pressure if memory serves me right. I would just google pressures for your rifle or check the owners manual. I have the marlin and Henry both seem to like the 36-38k range. Rl7 is another great powder, I use that for hunting loads. Im sure you can get H4198 load data from hodogen's website if you need it.

Yes those powders are designed to run without filler of any kind....do NOT use filler.

Unique has some really reduced loads if you wanna just plink or have a youth that wants to play too!!

 

[Orange Dust]

5744 is the only powder I know of that fill rates don't seem to matter. I have worked some full pressure loads in magnums that you had to get a light to see the powder in the case with very low SD's.

 

[Tac-O]

I would start at 40gr of 5744 in your 90.....I use 36in my 45-100 sharps with a 405gc, and it drives tacks! Being a newly manufactured rifle you can push those to 40k for pressure if memory serves me right. I would just google pressures for your rifle or check the owners manual. I have the marlin and Henry both seem to like the 36-38k range. Rl7 is another great powder, I use that for hunting loads. Im sure you can get H4198 load data from hodogen's website if you need it.

Yes those powders are designed to run without filler of any kind....do NOT use filler.

Unique has some really reduced loads if you wanna just plink or have a youth that wants to play too!!

5744 is the only powder I know of that fill rates don't seem to matter. I have worked some full pressure loads in magnums that you had to get a light to see the powder in the case with very low SD's.

Wow... That is impressive. Good thing I have enough to last me awhile! Sounds like 5744 could be a unicorn powder if it's applications became more popular

 

[Orange Dust]

Doesn't yield top velocities in much of anything, but is useful and accurate in about everything.

 

[bpcrshooter]

From my tests AA5744 isnt the most accurate powder or the fastest out there in a lever gun but, it works!. I would rather use 4198 or Rl7 for levers. but if you have a bunch, try it!! you can always try another powder out if it doesnt wo

matt

 

[Orange Dust]

I always had best results with the stuff at max pressures or close to it. Never had a 45-90. Always wanted one. We shot 3031 in a 45-70, and RE7 in a 458. That was jacketed bullets though and max loads.

 

[Tac-O]

I loaded up 20 rounds, shot at 100 yd, hit the 8x11 paper twice haha.

What a joyful and painful experience that was! I'll be buying myself a shoulder pad very soon.

Anyway, I ended up finding that I had a crap load of lead, or what I think is a lot of lead, in my barrel. I am thinking that's likely why the accuracy was so terrible. I was hoping y'all could shed some light on the leadding issue. First of all, how much lead is too much lead?

41.3-42.5gr 5744, 4 rounds each, 0.3gr apart
Jamison brass, virgin, 2.396", sized with 45-70FL die, no expander, expanded neck with the Lyman neck expander, die, seated to crimp groove, medium crimp with Lee FCD
MBC buffalo #1 405gr, .459", they say it's 18bhn... It's the 92/6/2 alloy
Fed 210 primer

I didn't have a chrono on it.

No picture of groups, cause they weren't groups!! Haha

Nearly all of the lead is near the muzzle and it seems like there's a lot.

Is the bullet too hard/soft for that powder and charge? Anything obvious I have done wrong or should change/try?

 

[bpcrshooter]

your lube is failing, any lead is bad. Unless your using gas checks the Antimony in your lead will cause leading. The gas checks "scrape" the barrel on the way out, keeping it clean they also seal against gas cutting. The lube they are using.....crap, sorry, its 50% made to stay on during shipping, 50% to actually keep from leading. In a lever gun the RCBS 300gr RNFPGC works very well cast from 16-1 or 17+1# of 95/5, I wouldnt run any more antimony that 5% in 16lbs. If you want harder bullets, quench them or temper them. If no gas check is used your going to need to slug your barrel and, run .001 over groove dia. to match your barrel perfectly and get a mold. Most manufactures run .450/.458 for barrel dia's. Lube is VERY important, I use Felix lube (google it) it has worked perfect in many rifles and pistols over the years with thousands of rounds.

long story short....find a bullet you have shot and post a pic of the base, if it looks like a mouse was chewing on it, your getting gas cutting. If it looks normal, your lube is failing. Your Psi should be in the 23k for your hardness, any more than that, your over pressuring the lead, getting gas cutting, much less than that your not going to obdurate the lead and get gas cutting.

Run a patch with turpentine down your barrel and let it sit for a few min, then wipe it out, it should remove the lead after a few passes.