Help me with an AR load

[Just a hunter]

I have never loaded for an AR before but thought I would give it a shot. My friend wanted to try to shoot the 73 grain ELD-M in his AR. I started with CFE223 powder but it is a no-go. Let me back up and say, something is a no-go. I tried a really low charge of 24 grains and have been all the way to 26.9 without hardly anything looking like a group. The closest thing to a group was the lowest charge generating only around 2,450 fps. My friend says it is a 1 in 8 twist and I don't have reason to doubt that. The holes in the target were little round holes and not egg shaped or anything for me to thing the bullets were unstable due to twist rate. Do you guys think there is something wrong with his setup or do I need to try a different powder or what would be your recommendation? I was using mixed brass too, so there's that. Winchester 41 primers. Looking forward to learning from you folks.

 

[QuietTexan]

What barrel is on it? Has the barrel been proven capable of shooting good groups with other bullets? Optics?

What are the groups/ lack thereof size and shape wise?

It might just be what this particular rifle is capable of. The platform itself has around a 2-4 MOA precision expectation in base, unrefined form. Good barrels, good ammo, good shooter, good tuning, etc can drive it to sub-MOA easily, but there are a lot more 4 MOA ARs than 1 MOA ARs out there.

That's necessarily a ding on many of those rifles. I have a 14.5" 5.56 upper with an ultralight pencil barrel and a 4MOA red dot on it, I'd be tickled to death if it shot 4" at 100 yards. But a 20" HBAR with a good barrel should be significantly better.

If everything checks out, change powder first.

 

[338 dude]

I have never loaded for an AR before but thought I would give it a shot. My friend wanted to try to shoot the 73 grain ELD-M in his AR. I started with CFE223 powder but it is a no-go. Let me back up and say, something is a no-go. I tried a really low charge of 24 grains and have been all the way to 26.9 without hardly anything looking like a group. The closest thing to a group was the lowest charge generating only around 2,450 fps. My friend says it is a 1 in 8 twist and I don't have reason to doubt that. The holes in the target were little round holes and not egg shaped or anything for me to thing the bullets were unstable due to twist rate. Do you guys think there is something wrong with his setup or do I need to try a different powder or what would be your recommendation? I was using mixed brass too, so there's that. Winchester 41 primers. Looking forward to learning from you folks.

Gonna have to get a better lot of brass if you expect better results but here's what Hornady says.

 

[just_jon]

I don't think it is reasonable to expect 1 MOA accuracy from mixed headstamp brass.

 

[338 dude]

.

 

[Just a hunter]

I think the mixed headstamp brass is hurting as much as anything. I'm going to sort some brass or use some of my new stuff and see what happens. I guess I didn't realize that the AR platform was inherently inaccurate as it is. I was expecting to be in the two MOA vicinity but I am closer to the 4-5 MOA range. The absolute lightest charge, which was nowhere close to the book velocity, was the best at a little over 2" at 100 yards. I don't think he wants to run that slow though. I'm trying to get more details about the rifle. I know it's an Aero Precision lower but that's all I can tell you at this point. Oh yeah, it has some kind of Bushnell scope on it that I am not impressed with as far as clarity goes. I'll reach out to him this evening and see what else I can find out about it. Thought about trying one of my scopes on it but maybe this is as good as it gets.

 

[QuietTexan]

Thought about trying one of my scopes on it but maybe this is as good as it gets.

I would do that for sure. Put a known good scope on it, and shoot a box of XM193 or something similar to sight it in and see if it can get under 2" on target. XM193 specifically because it's a 55gn bullet that will stabilize and the velocity will set a base line.

4-5" is not good, but 2" isn't out of the realm of normal for out-of-the-box rifles sadly, at least in my experience of un-boogering some of the stuff friends have put on my bench. Some of the really awful home built stuff has shoot in the 4+" 'this sucks' range.

Flip side Aero seems to be decent stuff, I have an AR-10 from them and like it.

 

[waspocrew]

I agree - I would separate the brass rather than using mixed.

Trigger? Is it mil spec? Which scope? If a low power variable and shooting at 100 yards, it may be harder to group well at 100 yards compared to a higher magnification like a 4-16x or higher.

1:8 twist should be totally fine for the 73 gr ELDM.

 

[Just a hunter]

I was hoping someone else on here had tried the 73 and either had really good or really terrible accuracy with it that would chime in. Looking on other sites it seems hit or miss, pun intended. I did see quite a few recommendations from folks saying to try TAC with it. He told me he had a guy build it for him and knows it's an 18" barrel with 1 in 8 twist, Aero Precision lower, Toolcraft BCG and that's all so far. The trigger feels like a sponge with about 3/8" of travel before it breaks like a springy green limb on a poplar tree or something. He's going to find out more about the build and let me know. I don't know anything about AR triggers, can they be improved on or are they what they are and the only improvement is a new upgraded one?

 

[Reelamin]

I was hoping someone else on here had tried the 73 and either had really good or really terrible accuracy with it that would chime in. Looking on other sites it seems hit or miss, pun intended. I did see quite a few recommendations from folks saying to try TAC with it. He told me he had a guy build it for him and knows it's an 18" barrel with 1 in 8 twist, Aero Precision lower, Toolcraft BCG and that's all so far. The trigger feels like a sponge with about 3/8" of travel before it breaks like a springy green limb on a poplar tree or something. He's going to find out more about the build and let me know. I don't know anything about AR triggers, can they be improved on or are they what they are and the only improvement is a new upgraded one?

There is no magic load you can just copy and get equal results based on where you are now. Throw a JP spring kit in it for $10 and your pull weight will drop to 3# or less. Won't fix the 3/8" creep but it will smooth it out and get a crisp break. Toolcraft is American Made and they have inexpensive $60 to semi expensive $200 BCG's. First, I would suggest you shoot some factory 55gr decent quality range loads in it. If its over 2" at 100yds with a target to match reticle for precise aiming I would suggest you start with the rifle before the loads. My cheap Ruger's and SW's shoot under 2" all day long with 8 twist totally stock with trigger spring kits. Once you have eliminated the rifle issue as much as you can, as suggested really get your loading process and components dialed in second.

 

[DoneNOut]

That gun sounds like homemade sin with SKS precision!

An AR15 is an innately "accurate" (I save that term for the shooter these days. Precision I apply to the gun) rifle if it's built right, with the right components.

You're asking about loading for it though, so here's my advice. I tested the precision capability of roughly 300 AR15 rigs with this following recipe:

77gr SMK
H4895 24gr
Lake City brass (Mixed years/lots)
WSR primer
2.250 COL
MV 2725 16" barrel

The 77gr SMK is just ignorant to failure out of 1/8 & 1/7 twist ARs.

 

[Just a hunter]

I was getting ready to order some other goodies so I will see if I can find the 77gr SMK and toss a box or two of those in cart too.

I understand that I can't "just copy and get equal results" from someone else's load data but it's a good starting point. If multiple people got on here and said that the particular bullets he's wanting to shoot in his gun have not worked for them regardless of what combination of powder and primer they used, I'd say that would be good information. Likewise, if multiple people got on here and said, I tried this powder, bullet and primer combination and had pretty good results, I'd consider that information too. That's the point of these forums isn't it? Aren't we supposed to be here to share information and help each other? I'll admit, I'm ignorant when it comes to the AR platform and I'm not the most experienced person when it comes to reloading but I am trying and eager to learn all I can. However, I don't have unlimited budget nor the time to test each and every powder, bullet, case, primer, sizing die, seating die, crimping die, barrel length, BCG, upper, lower, handguard.........

I hate to come on here and ask for help because I always get some kind of "help" in the form of, you can't do this or you can't do that or why would you want to do that? Most of the people I have encountered here and dealt with have been awesome but there are some that just have a hard time helping without trying to make others feel stupid. I'm sorry for the rant and I'm sorry for asking for help. Thanks guys.

 

[338 dude]

I was getting ready to order some other goodies so I will see if I can find the 77gr SMK and toss a box or two of those in cart too.

I understand that I can't "just copy and get equal results" from someone else's load data but it's a good starting point. If multiple people got on here and said that the particular bullets he's wanting to shoot in his gun have not worked for them regardless of what combination of powder and primer they used, I'd say that would be good information. Likewise, if multiple people got on here and said, I tried this powder, bullet and primer combination and had pretty good results, I'd consider that information too. That's the point of these forums isn't it? Aren't we supposed to be here to share information and help each other? I'll admit, I'm ignorant when it comes to the AR platform and I'm not the most experienced person when it comes to reloading but I am trying and eager to learn all I can. However, I don't have unlimited budget nor the time to test each and every powder, bullet, case, primer, sizing die, seating die, crimping die, barrel length, BCG, upper, lower, handguard.........

I hate to come on here and ask for help because I always get some kind of "help" in the form of, you can't do this or you can't do that or why would you want to do that? Most of the people I have encountered here and dealt with have been awesome but there are some that just have a hard time helping without trying to make others feel stupid. I'm sorry for the rant and I'm sorry for asking for help. Thanks guys.

Don't be sorry that's exactly what this forum is about just like you said, but there's always a few in a crowd you're on the Internet you gotta have thick skin occasionally.

 

[DoneNOut]

I was getting ready to order some other goodies so I will see if I can find the 77gr SMK and toss a box or two of those in cart too.

I understand that I can't "just copy and get equal results" from someone else's load data but it's a good starting point. If multiple people got on here and said that the particular bullets he's wanting to shoot in his gun have not worked for them regardless of what combination of powder and primer they used, I'd say that would be good information. Likewise, if multiple people got on here and said, I tried this powder, bullet and primer combination and had pretty good results, I'd consider that information too. That's the point of these forums isn't it? Aren't we supposed to be here to share information and help each other? I'll admit, I'm ignorant when it comes to the AR platform and I'm not the most experienced person when it comes to reloading but I am trying and eager to learn all I can. However, I don't have unlimited budget nor the time to test each and every powder, bullet, case, primer, sizing die, seating die, crimping die, barrel length, BCG, upper, lower, handguard.........

I hate to come on here and ask for help because I always get some kind of "help" in the form of, you can't do this or you can't do that or why would you want to do that? Most of the people I have encountered here and dealt with have been awesome but there are some that just have a hard time helping without trying to make others feel stupid. I'm sorry for the rant and I'm sorry for asking for help. Thanks guys.

You get it! Only thing I'll disagree on is there are some constants in the sport. For example, FGMM 168gr loaded ammo is a great indicator of the precision potential of a 308 chambered rifle. (Also The 77SMK for 5.56! )

The forums are to seek, gain, & share knowledge, experience, & information. There are many, however, that utilize these forums to prey upon those looking to use forums as I stated. They think having knowledge you don't makes them superior and draws out their pontification and demeaning demon. Some are just peanut gallery simpletons taking stabs at someone admitting ignorance about an area of knowledge they wish to obtain.

I'm a bit of a nut and like to keep things light, so if I make a joke or razz someone I always follow it up with something I think is beneficial to their quest for knowledge.