Good ES, groups not so good.

[Buzzsaw]

If you were getting ES of 23fps, but groups of 1.3" at 100, would you try anything to get those groups down? Or just move on?
I shot a load development today, and all powder charges had an ES of 23fps or better, but the groups were 1.3" or worse. Sample size for ES was small, so we'd see if that even held, but with a difference of .4gr, the ES of 2 different powder charges was 21fps.
Another load that I worked up, same bullet, different powder, is shooting just over .5", but ES of 68 with about 20 rounds through chrono. I no longer have the brass that I worked up that load with, (nickle plated).
Try getting groups down? or try the other powder with different brass and see what happens?

what rifle are you shooting?

 

[Longtine88]

You think? I know he does. Lots of fun to be in elk camp with too.

Yeah I'll see ya just east of that Arizona line in October ……..bring your SAUM!

 

[Koda_]

IMO 23 isnt a low ES though not too bad.
Low ES but larger group then adjust your seating depth.

 

[CMRHG]

In addition, after sizing your brass I highly recommend running them through a mandrel if you're not currently using one. This way they all will have the same tension. I use one that creates a .002 tension.

The next tension is so important on getting low ES ..I totally agree on finishing with mandrels but you may have to run it through one time or many times. You're trying to get the same release feel from your press. I work the necks, rotating the brass a bit at a time until the weight of the handle at 90 degrees pulls the mandrel out. You want these as close as possible because u still will have bullets that can vary in diameter up to 3-4 tenths. Necks finished with a mandrel one time can still vary over a thou in diameter. Will greatly affect the velocity..

 

[Longtine88]

 

[Eric H]

The next tension is so important on getting low ES ..I totally agree on finishing with mandrels but you may have to run it through one time or many times. You're trying to get the same release feel from your press. I work the necks, rotating the brass a bit at a time until the weight of the handle at 90 degrees pulls the mandrel out. You want these as close as possible because u still will have bullets that can vary in diameter up to 3-4 tenths. Necks finished with a mandrel one time can still vary over a thou in diameter. Will greatly affect the velocity..

You're correct. I was doing load development for my 30.06 and got 6 ES and 2.5 SD. Loads were .3 grain increments. .7 MOA and will now attempt seating test to get below .5 MOA once weax break. I use mandrels for every cartridge I load.

 

[SSG Graybush]

If you were getting ES of 23fps, but groups of 1.3" at 100, would you try anything to get those groups down? Or just move on?
I shot a load development today, and all powder charges had an ES of 23fps or better, but the groups were 1.3" or worse. Sample size for ES was small, so we'd see if that even held, but with a difference of .4gr, the ES of 2 different powder charges was 21fps.
Another load that I worked up, same bullet, different powder, is shooting just over .5", but ES of 68 with about 20 rounds through chrono. I no longer have the brass that I worked up that load with, (nickle plated).
Try getting groups down? or try the other powder with different brass and see what happens?

I do a ladder test at 2 tenths of a grain increments, find max and the best node(charge weight) to start with. Then test seating depth at 3 thou increments with that charge weight. Starting at 60 thou for Bergers, going to 75 thou. First. Shooting 3 per jump. You should be able to see the groups opening or closing. If groups aren't good but they are closing at 70 thou I continue to 73 76 thou etc If I don't find a decent node I'll go to 15 to 30 thou jump and test again. Changing the jump or charge weight can change ES, and changing charge weight or jump can change group size. So I then go back and test charge weight again, up and down in 1 or 2 tenths of a grain increments. See if the ES/groups improve. But I always have to go back and forth, powder, jump, powder,
jump. This has worked for me for many rifles/loads.
Look up OCW and Satterly Load development methods. Oh, for Hornady and Nosler I'd start at 15 to 30 thou jump, and for Barnes 35 to 50 thou.
For 120 to 150 gr Bullets RL16 or H4350, for 150 to 180 gr H4831sc, and for 180 to 215 gr H1000, 215+ gr bullets Retumbo. I only use temp stable powders in my hunting cartridges.
And I shoot about 100-150 rds through a new barrel before I start load development, or till I see it pick up 30 to 150 fps. Then it's broke in.
I look at it as, am looking for a powder charge/speed node that's 5 tenths of a grain across and a seating/accuracy node that's 5 thou across minimum. That way when loading 1 or 2 kernels of powder or a slightly different bullet ogive that changes cbto won't take me out of the nodes.
Fyi if your not annealing, or not using bullet and headspace comparators, start. Anneal Ez and Hornady comparators and calipers work well. I record data in cbto not coal. Coal is less consistent and only matters if mag size is limited. Consistently bumping back the shoulder 2 thou from fired, annealing, bullet seating and charge throwing are all important imo.

 

[Buzzsaw]

To begin with, Is the OP's rifle capable of shooting tiny groups?

 

[Eric H]

To begin with, Is the OP's rifle capable of shooting tiny groups?

What's the caliber he's shooting?

 

[spladi]

If you were getting ES of 23fps, but groups of 1.3" at 100, would you try anything to get those groups down? Or just move on?
I shot a load development today, and all powder charges had an ES of 23fps or better, but the groups were 1.3" or worse. Sample size for ES was small, so we'd see if that even held, but with a difference of .4gr, the ES of 2 different powder charges was 21fps.
Another load that I worked up, same bullet, different powder, is shooting just over .5", but ES of 68 with about 20 rounds through chrono. I no longer have the brass that I worked up that load with, (nickle plated).
Try getting groups down? or try the other powder with different brass and see what happens?

I think that you will see greater changes at greater distances, apparently Velocity differences don't seem to matter much at 100 as long as it's

enough to overcome gravity and the rifle lift or shift from the recoil might be less as the bullet gets down the bore quicker with higher velocity.
I usually test powder quantity first as it shows the greater changes in group size than primer weight or brands and seating depths.

 

[keen.on.it]

Thanks a lot guys! That was kind of what I was thinking, I will probably switch back to the previous powder and give it a go with the new brass.