? for the smiths out there

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Ridge Runner, Nov 25, 2007.

  1. Ridge Runner

    Ridge Runner Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    987
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2002
    My 6.5 Gibbs has a tight neck, well tighter than I like them, case life is dismal, a PITA to for cases for but it shoots like a house-a-fire, velocity is a lil low I think (3280 fps with a 139 lapua/29.5" barrel)
    the only way I've successfully made cases is to use unique/cormeal/tp, then they are good for 1 firing (lose the pocket) I fireform, turn necks to .010 then load.
    The guy who built its instructions were, resize to a crush fit, load with 54 gr of IMR 4831 behind any 140 gr. first batch or rem cases were fair.
    His next instruction was load with 62 gr of re-22 and a 140 (first round blew primer broke extractor) so I turned the necks but still lost the pockets after 1 firing. cut the charge back to 60 gr using CM/TP fireformed new win cases, lost the pockets after 1 firing.
    Got 100 new nosler cases, the smith told me I was swelling the pockets with cornmeal, so necked to a crush fit loaded the 54 gr 4831 behind a 140fired 9 cases the 10th blew the primer, broke the extractor, the first 9 were ruined also.
    Now my question, will opening up the throat help this? if so what will it do to velocity? not holding anyone to anything just wanted to hear experienced opinions.
    loaded unturned outside neck dia is .289
    turned loaded outside neck dia is .285
    fired turned neck dia is .288
    fired unturned outside neck dia is .290

    also had it shooting decent with H-1000, but went up to 67 gr with no signs of pressure at about 3220 fps, but max load is sposed to be 62 gr. Am I expecting too much or is 62 gr of re-22 too hot for this cartridge?
    thanx
    JS
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2007
  2. johnnyk

    johnnyk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,753
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2001
    What is the parent case of the 6.5 Gibbs?...JohnnyK.
     
  3. lazylabs

    lazylabs Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    870
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    What case are you using to fireform? I guess the important question is what is the correct trim length your reamer is setup for? The original Gibbs cartridges were all off the 30-06 case(2.494) the overall case length in the books I have list 2.500 for the gibbs. If your using 270 brass(2.540) and not trimming them before loading you may be crimping the bullet in the case in the throat of the chamber. How much powder were you using with the cornmeal method? Did the cases show taper at the end of the neck?
     
  4. Ridge Runner

    Ridge Runner Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    987
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2002
    labs, the smiths reamer was made of a 270 case length, the cases came out fully formed, just slightly rounded shoulders, I was using 11 gr of unique.


    johnny, Rocky gibbs designed the cartridge on a '06 case, his design called for the shoulder to be pushed foreward far enough to allow one caliber of neck length. The smith had his 6.5 reamer ordered at 270 case length to better stabilize the long 140-155 gr hi bc bullets


    Took the rifle to a local smith today, was broken down and chamber cast made, the lead seems to be longer than the cases, the neck diameter of the casting was .292, seems that in order to get case life I'm just gonna hafta load it down.
    any other thoughts?
    The barrel is a kreiger 1/8, are they known to be slow? I mean if I load it down to 3150 fps, I'd be better off with a 6.5/06 AI wouldn't I?
    RR
     
  5. lazylabs

    lazylabs Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    870
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    I am not following on the "lead is longer than the cases"??

    Here is the loading info I have from wildcat cartridges vol I
    26" shilen so you will gain a bit with your 29"

    140 sierra's
    4831 55gr 3,041fps (that seems to be close to the load recomended to you)
    RL-22 56gr 3,018fps (seems quite a bit less than recomended to you)

    The only powders that were over 60gr were 5010 and H870.

    RL22 was 62gr with 100 gr bullets

    It seems that you possibly got a bad starting load that is over max.

    I would definetly back that RL22 load down to 55'ish and see what happens. If you want the rest of the data in this book I can PM it to you.
     
  6. Ridge Runner

    Ridge Runner Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    987
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2002
    ok, thanks labs, appreciate the input.
    RR
     
  7. CatShooter

    CatShooter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,063
    Joined:
    May 8, 2001
    Ridge...

    I remember when you were having that built about a year and a half ago - I was getting a 264 WM at the time.

    If you have a .292" chamber neck, and a .289" loaded unturned outside neck, you would up with a "no turn neck", not a "tight neck"... and when you turn off another 4 or 5 thou, the necks are pretty thin to survive a 7 thou expansion when fired.

    I have also found that neck turning a case causes the necks to harden - I wound up tossing out over 900 neck turned cases a while back when I loaded them up, and let them sit for a while, and they split on their own (without ever being fired :( ) The original neck was 0.014" and I turned them to 0.010". They had the classical "T" split - down the neck along the bullet, and then around the base of the bullet, forming a "T", for almost half of the circumference of the neck.

    I would suggest that you load a bullet in a Fire Formed case that has an unturned neck, blacken the neck, and chamber it to check that there is adequate neck clearance - then turn the cases the minimum amount to clean them up, and then anneal them.

    That might work out for you.

    Also... as Lazy said - that RL-22 load might be too hot if you are loosing cases from primer pocket expansion.


    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2007
  8. Lost creek

    Lost creek Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    126
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    I have seen lapua bullets that are over bore diameter cause pressure problems.
     
  9. Ridge Runner

    Ridge Runner Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    987
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2002
    labs, with the chamber cast held beside a fired case even at the shoulder you could see that the lead was longer than the case neck. I loaded up 58 gr of re22 with a 140 and got 2960 fps.

    cat, I started turning necks because I couldn't begin to put a bullet in a fired case, never had one like this before so assumed I had a tight neck, and blowing primers with the fireform load I was given just didn't make sense. I did find out that ff'ing with COW left my necks .001-.0015 thicker than using a bullet.

    OK, my necks are uneven from using FL die to neck down, could this be causing the problem using unturned necks? looking into getting a bushing die in 270 and the appropriate bushings?


    Lost bullet brand doesn't matter its the same with hornady and sierra.
    RR
     
  10. CatShooter

    CatShooter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,063
    Joined:
    May 8, 2001
    RR...

    Back when I was a Grasshopper (the days of the brand new 30-40 Krag ;) ), cases from a new factory rifle I bought, gave me necks that a bullet wouldn't drop into - I had to push them in.

    I was told by the local Guru that the chamber was no good, and he offered to buy it from me, "So he could save me from hurting myself" :(

    I had "that feeling", and didn't sell it. Later, when I became a gunsmith, I learned that "minimum necks" give that effect. If the loaded neck is 0.300", and the chamber neck is 0.302" - 0.303", the neck will not expand enough to take a set, and it will spring back to where it was.

    Later, when I was shooting bench, I built the rifles so there was 1 to 2 thou clearance, and never needed to size the necks (well, almost NEVER)... I would fire the case, re-prime it, put powder in it, and seat the bullet, and fire it again.

    Lotsa bench shooters did that when I was active in it.

    I now have almost 10 rifles that "suffer" this neck relationship. Four are factory.

    One is a Ruger #1 in .218 Bee that I have had for a number of years, and I have never sized a case for it. There is 0.001" clearance, and it is "right out of the box". I just shoot it, re-prime it, load it and shoot it.

    When we order a "tight neck", we are deliberately setting this situation up - our loaded necks are a few thou less then the chamber neck.

    When it happens with a new factory rifle, or a custom that was cut with a "normal" chamber, we are surprised.

    I would love ALL of my rifles to have this problem.

    I think when you had blown primers, you went to the necks as a problem (understandable), and skipped looking at the loads.

    I think you have a great chamber, that will give you long case life. I think your loads are a "bit" heavy.

    My 264WM has a larger case, and is a "bigger" round, and those loads would heavy for my rifle.

    I think the guy that did the build, didn't have good load data.


    Thant's funny - where do you think the metal came from??? Were these from the same lot of brass?

    I don't think so... you have the clearance so there can be no problem there.

    I don't have a Redding catalog nearby, do they make bushing "S" dies for the 6.5 Gibbs?

    I haven't been able to find reliable 6.5 Gibbs load data on the net, but there is a lot of 6.5-06 data. Might be a good idea to use max 6.5-06 as starting point, and work up with the assumption that you have no load data (cuz I don't think yours is reliable), and work up like any other cartridge... and watch for the usual suspects.

    The 6.5 Gibbs has about 74.3 gr of water (to mouth) capacity, the 264WM has about 79.2 gr of water... the 264WM is almost 7% greater than the 6.5 Gibbs, so that might put things in perspective for you.

    I ran some loads from "Load from a disk" for you.
    140 gr - RL-22

    Max 57.3grs, 3150fps, @ 55kpsia.

    So your instructions to: His next instruction was load with 62 gr of re-22 and a 140 (first round blew primer broke extractor) so I turned the necks but still lost the pockets after 1 firing. cut the charge back to 60 gr using CM/TP fireformed new win cases, lost the pockets after 1 firing....

    ... were seriously over loaded - 62 gr of RL-22 will give you somewhere in the area of 70Kpsia, a VERY BAD THING! :( :(

    I can understand why your extractor went south, and you are beating the crap out of the cases.

    The load "Labs" told you was just about at 50Kpsia, and 3000fps, with the 140 bullet.

    I don't think you can expect more than ~3,100-3,150 fps with this case and a 140 gr bullet, and at that velocity, you will be running around 60Kpsia.

    Considering the PIA it is to make the cases, if it were mine, I would keep velocities around 3,000-3,050, and enjoy the case life.

    I hope this helps a bit.

    If you would like me to generate some load data for you, PM me the powder, bullet weight and length, and I'll run it for you.

    I think your builder was smoking a little wackie weed when he was telling you the load data - it is WAY off, and DANGEROUS!!.

    Keep us advised - I have been hearing about this project for so long, I feel like it's like my stepchild ;)

    Meow ;)

    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2007
  11. Ridge Runner

    Ridge Runner Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    987
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2002
    the 62 gr re/22 @3300 fps was also mentioned as max load in an article written by darryl cassel in varmint hunter mag on the 6.5 gibbs. In it he stated his cases had since been loaded 5 times.

    I don't know, but my necks were running .015-.0155 thickness on the first rem. cases I had, that same lot was .014-.0145 when I used a bullet, just assumed using a bullet pulled more brass from the neck to form the shoulders.


    If I'm forming 6.5 cases from 270 win do I need a gibbs bushing die for the initial neckdown?
    RR
     
  12. CatShooter

    CatShooter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,063
    Joined:
    May 8, 2001
    How long is the throat... can you seat the 140 bullets out so the base of the bullet is in the neck, or does it go down into the "powder room".

    I have found that bullets seated way out for long throats can allow very heavy loads - kinda like an Ackley improved, except the increase of volume comes from using the neck volume... I have a .223 with a throat so long that bullets are seated to 2.450", and I can load 7% over the max loads, and see no pressure signs.

    Darrel might have had a full throat for the 140s, and seated them way out.

    Naw...

    .
     
  13. Ridge Runner

    Ridge Runner Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    987
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2002
    darrel stated his loads were 50 thou off the rifleing, mine are 20, but I'll experiment a bit, I still have lots of room
    RR
     
  14. CatShooter

    CatShooter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,063
    Joined:
    May 8, 2001
    But how deep into the throat did he go... what is your loaded OAL, when near or touching the lands?

    .