FL or bushing die?

I've always used standard full-length sizing dies but am starting to wonder about bushing dies. I will be starting to load for 7 saum in the next few days and want to get the most consistent brass i'm capable of. I have never used a bushing die of any kind, so not really sure where to start. How do you know which bushing to use for your brass, etc?
Bushing dies still do full length resize your brass. The Bushings allow you to get much more specific about your neck diameter after resizing.

I have Redding Bushing Dies and competition die sets as well as some Hornady Custom die sets and couldn't be happier with them.

The real advantage to the bushing dies is that together with uniforming necks by turning and trimming you get much better concentricity and consistent neck tension which can really help you fine tune loads much more easily than standard dies.

Neck sizing dies allow you to only size the neck leaving the rest of the cartridge perfectly formed to your chamber but you will find that it doesn't take long for them to get too tight and need then to be resized every 3-5 firings.
 
It can vary slightly from lot to lot and you will find thick/thin areas in the necks even in the best brass which is why I started uniforming my necks by turning.
Yeah most necks I've checked usually vary around a half a thou. You can really true up your results by turning them. If I was shooting matches I'd likely do it. I'm lazy and happy with 1/2 MOA accuracy. I bought the 21st Century turning arbor and used it on the 300 WSMs I used to load for. Maybe I'll get a set up for my 6.5 PRC and try it again.
 
what about a body die and a Lee collet neck die ?
Just using the full length collet die with your necks uniformed in prep is probably going to give you all the help you'll ever need.

I totally dismissed the idea of neck turning for years until I finally gave in and tried it once with my 6.5LRM. I then started really looking hard at my virgin brass and discovered how inconsistent neck thickness and uniformity can be even with the best quality brass I could buy.

The nice thing about neck turning is that while it's a time consuming pain in the butt it only needs to be done once.

If you do that and use your FL collet dies and aren't happy then you can always use a mandrel as a second step.

As has been said, it's really easy to get to chasing the rabbit down holes here and there are more holes than rabbits.

The question is how much time and effort you're willing to put into all of this vs how much improvement you're seeing, not to mention the extra money you can spend buying all the goodies.

The latter isn't that big of a deal if you're only loading for a couple of rifles and cartridges but it can really add up if you load for 20-30 like I do on any given year.
 
Bushing dies still do full length resize your brass. The Bushings allow you to get much more specific about your neck diameter after resizing.

I have Redding Bushing Dies and competition die sets as well as some Hornady Custom die sets and couldn't be happier with them.

The real advantage to the bushing dies is that together with uniforming necks by turning and trimming you get much better concentricity and consistent neck tension which can really help you fine tune loads much more easily than standard dies.

Neck sizing dies allow you to only size the neck leaving the rest of the cartridge perfectly formed to your chamber but you will find that it doesn't take long for them to get too tight and need then to be resized every 3-5 firings.
I get better concentricity with my Redding standard seater then my Forster BR chamber seater, believe it or not. I was really thrown back, and the play in the bullet guide in the chamber sleeve. Also was surprised the price of these dies are new. I got them 20 bucks cheaper off ebay.
 
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I used neck sizing dies until I saw In the wind, Gun Blue, and Eric Cortina on youtube. If full sizing is good enough for them it's good enough for me.
 
With few exceptions, I have used mostly FL bushing dyes, predominately Redding Competition "S" for my precision, competition and LR hunting rifles using SAAMI cartridges. Having run the full circle over the years involving the meticulous prep of brass prep(neck turning, weighing, body dyes/collet-neck sizing, etc, etc), to the straight use of basic FL standard(integrated neck) dyes, I have found that the use of a "quality" FL bushing dye can deliver the performance I require for my most demanding applications(<.5MOA@1000yds)…But, with one important factor….The starting point. Choice and the availability of quality brass has always been an important prerequisite for me, not only influencing my method of brass prep, but my overall cartridge selection as well. It takes a lot more work when trying to produce a silk purse from a sows ear. IMO..
 
neck sizing is ok if your not an accuracy nut, however there are people who claim to be accuracy nuts, and don't know any better.

"eh, it shot ok today or oh, it shot really good today". I have to see how it does on paper, after missing a chuck under a hundred yards..... neck sizing for a lever rifle for hunting?
 
I get better concentricity with my Redding standard seater then my Forster BR chamber seater, believe it or not. I was really thrown back, and the play in the bullet guide in the chamber sleeve. Also was surprised the price of these dies are new. I got them 20 bucks cheaper off ebay.
I have zero complaints at all with my Redding Type S Dies.
 
#1 Runout isn't an issue that's corrected by a sizing die, more on that later. I mean brass moving in terms of FL+mandrel might move the brass -.005 then +0.004 to get to a net -.001. A bushing and mandrel you could do -.0015 and +.0005 to get to the same -.001 point. The total distance the brass moves does have an impact on the case by work hardening the neck. Which leads to the the second point of:

#2 I'm meaning spring back here to describe how case hardness increases when being worked, and over time the case will spring back more no matter how long you hold it in the die or how tight the die is. Hardening can be accelerated by moving brass more than necessary, holding down longer won't change the dimensions of the fired case versus the inside of the die. An FL die can't be adjusted smaller as brass hardens and springs back more, resulting in less neck tension/interference fit/hoop tension (or whatever the popular semantic term is today) when you seat the bullet.


More ADHD thoughts, the "you" here is the indefinite, generic muse that my brain talks to itself with:

Runout can be managed in a lot of ways. If you're having runout problems then you should take a holistic look at your complete reloading process, including components. FL+button, FL+mandrel, bushing+button, bushing+mandrel, LCD, separate bump and neck dies, all of these should be able to produce low run out loaded rounds. All the combinations should work because there's a point where the die stops mattering in that it doesn't induce runout, but it won't correct for runout being induced elsewhere. Bullet seating is an important part of the process - the straightest brass around can be pushed out of true by a low quality seating die, and also by the combination of sizing and bullet fit. My experience tells me that shoving a flat base bullet into a very tightly sized, very hard neck with a generic seating will induce more run out than sliding a boat tail into a minimally sized, annealed neck using a chamber seating die. So which parts of the statement matters most? Bullet base, seating die, seating stem, neck die, neck size, neck hardness? I don't know, because there's no one right answer, just finding the right balance and process that works for you and your rifle. Controlling what I can to reduce the height of multiple tolerances in the stack is IMO more important than making any single tolerance nil at the expense of making another taller.

There's also a flip side issue to #2 up there that even as necks harden a standard minimum spec FL die might still be undersizing the neck, and the bullet seating operation will do double duty of seating and the final expansion of the neck, which can lead to inconsistencies in seating depth and more runout. A bushing die you can put in a smaller bushing and end up with more consistent final neck ID as the case hardens over its life cycle - if you don't anneal.

If you do anneal, you can get consistent results in other ways, including an FL die. That was the point about you can get there in a lot of ways, dies aren't the only part of the equation. If you FL size and anneal, there's a very real chance you never split a case neck before you lose the primer pocket. If an FL die is giving you the accuracy and precision you want, there wouldn't be a benefit to changing to a bushing/mandrel set up - cost/benefit return would be nothing because you get no benefit since you got no change. Now if you're looking for more precision than you're getting currently, the tuning options of a bushing/mandrel might be worth the cost because it's a way to see the impact of neck tension/et al adjustments on a target. But if you're not to where you'd see results of the change in ammo quality because you're doing one of many other things - using recycled brass, cheap bullets, a crappy chamber, a poorly stocked rifle, back to no benefit. You'll never see the results of changing your sizing process on paper unless it's the limiting factor of your loading AND shooting currently. Which takes me full circle back to runout. If runout is causing issues on the target for you, the sizing die isn't where to start IMO. A blank drawing board is, otherwise you might be shotgunning money at the problem trying new sizing dies instead of actually finding your true root problem elsewhere.
GREAT post!
Edited to add- There's a tremendous amount of solid information in this post (#28) Really, I think everything to consider is in here...
 
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