Consistent ES and SD

[Matt_C]

I have been reloading for many years and struggle with consistently achieving single digit ES and SD. I use a lab radar with the magnetic trigger and rarely not capture a shot. My reloading practices is good brass (lapua) CCI primers 200 or 250 depending on the caliber (6.5 creedmoor or 6.5 PRC) Hornady 140 ELDM or 143 ELDX, each rifle is a custom action and better then average barrels (proof on the PRC and Benchmark on the creedmoor). All though each rifle has produced .250 or better groups if I do my part I struggle with single digit ES and SD. Typical powders I have tried are IMR OR Hodgons H's or Retumbo. I use a FL dies and bump brass back 2-3 thousands. I use a carbide mandrel to set neck tension at 2 thousandths. I clean and brush inside necks after resizing. I typically set my jump at 40-50 thousandths to start and tune as needed. My powder scale is the Creedmoor digital and I calibrate and weigh to the kernel.

What am I missing? Is it my components or am I missing some important step. Oh I anneal every 3 firings.

All that matters is what shows up consistently on the animal, paper or steel.

 

[Mike Matteson]

What I have been reading, that primer pockets and primer seating need to be very consistence too. So 1 or 2 more things to do or check on. Now I have never push beyond much pass 500yds. My grouping were good at 500 yards, but never tried to go past that.

 

[Longtine88]

I have been reloading for many years and struggle with consistently achieving single digit ES and SD. I use a lab radar with the magnetic trigger and rarely not capture a shot. My reloading practices is good brass (lapua) CCI primers 200 or 250 depending on the caliber (6.5 creedmoor or 6.5 PRC) Hornady 140 ELDM or 143 ELDX, each rifle is a custom action and better then average barrels (proof on the PRC and Benchmark on the creedmoor). All though each rifle has produced .250 or better groups if I do my part I struggle with single digit ES and SD. Typical powders I have tried are IMR OR Hodgons H's or Retumbo. I use a FL dies and bump brass back 2-3 thousands. I use a carbide mandrel to set neck tension at 2 thousandths. I clean and brush inside necks after resizing. I typically set my jump at 40-50 thousandths to start and tune as needed. My powder scale is the Creedmoor digital and I calibrate and weigh to the kernel.

What am I missing? Is it my components or am I missing some important step. Oh I anneal every 3 firings.

I kinda quit chasing the really low ES/SD marks a couple years ago and started solely working my powder charges out at 750 yards. I find the two or three that strike close to the same vertical's then verify that again. After that I hone in on my seating depth and bam I have a consistent load that works way far away. Now I will say that usually after I do this the ES is fairly low like under 20. I've never really had one above that. I do all load workups on shot brass. I separate the brass in lots. I anneal every other firing. Run the cases through a body die just bumping the shoulders back, size the neck in a bushing die 0.001" past where I want to be, then use a Mandrel to set my neck perfectly. I do have several loads single ES/SD's. But I do have some that are double digits. If I go to hunting in a different elevation then I verify the ballistic conditions there with 200 yard shots and 1000 yard shots and adjust accordingly and I'm ready to go. Enviromental and weather factors are everything past 800. Goodluck.

 

[Bang4theBuck]

I have been reloading for many years and struggle with consistently achieving single digit ES and SD. I use a lab radar with the magnetic trigger and rarely not capture a shot. My reloading practices is good brass (lapua) CCI primers 200 or 250 depending on the caliber (6.5 creedmoor or 6.5 PRC) Hornady 140 ELDM or 143 ELDX, each rifle is a custom action and better then average barrels (proof on the PRC and Benchmark on the creedmoor). All though each rifle has produced .250 or better groups if I do my part I struggle with single digit ES and SD. Typical powders I have tried are IMR OR Hodgons H's or Retumbo. I use a FL dies and bump brass back 2-3 thousands. I use a carbide mandrel to set neck tension at 2 thousandths. I clean and brush inside necks after resizing. I typically set my jump at 40-50 thousandths to start and tune as needed. My powder scale is the Creedmoor digital and I calibrate and weigh to the kernel.

What am I missing? Is it my components or am I missing some important step. Oh I anneal every 3 firings.

Are you annealing the brass? I had the same issue until I started annealing religiously.

 

[DoneNOut]

Had a load today ran ES: 7fps, SD: 4fps! Only 5 rounds, but I was proud of myself. Didn't group good tho!

 

[MagnumManiac]

I will tell you this, I have never just run a primer because it has worked in other cartridges and I do not believe in the notion that you NEED a magnum primer in a magnum cartridge. Every primer type gets tested, whether they are SR or LR.
My 338-416 Rigby Improved 45° runs a standard Fed 210 primer.
My 22-250AI runs a magnum SR in its Lapua brass. You have to test every primer type, there is always a stand out that will be consistent. Primer depth/crush is also critical. This is why I love my Primal Rights primer seater.

Cheers.

 

[Mike Matteson]

I will tell you this, I have never just run a primer because it has worked in other cartridges and I do not believe in the notion that you NEED a magnum primer in a magnum cartridge. Every primer type gets tested, whether they are SR or LR.
My 338-416 Rigby Improved 45° runs a standard Fed 210 primer.
My 22-250AI runs a magnum SR in its Lapua brass. You have to test every primer type, there is always a stand out that will be consistent. Primer depth/crush is also critical. This is why I love my Primal Rights primer seater.

Cheers.

YEP! Good brass, annealing, primers, and other care for brass. I have one of those Primal Rights Seater too. There was quite-a-bit on seating primes here awhile back. Some real peeing contest too. A different primer can make a lot of different.
I feel every bit helps. You don't have too, but I don't like missing because my bullets are going in different dircetions. Small targets make for small groups. If not more miss. I don't like to waste ammo, because my ammo can't hit what I point it at.

 

[OFFISHN]

Are you annealing the brass? I had the same issue until I started annealing religiously.

Yes every third firing. Not sure I have noticed any difference before or after other then neck tension after annealing seams to be lighter due to softer brass.

 

[Dsmiley]

The two things I would try next would be moving to annealing every firing after cleaning but before sizing and using a dry neck lube, graphite or h-BN. I would also consider swapping to a beam scale or upgrading to A&D FX120i or similar. Poor ES is usually neck tension related or powder charge related and there's lots that can cause a digital scale to wander

Aneal every time. If you have .002 neck tension on an annealed load it will be different on that load that is not annealed. Consistency is the game.

 

[OFFISHN]

Aneal every time. If you have .002 neck tension on an annealed load it will be different on that load that is not annealed. Consistency is the game.

I came away from this last weekend with an ES 10-11 and an SD 4-5 for a five shot group. Two things I have come to believe helped is second firing after annealing. Cleaning the ID of the neck prior to seating and shooting a dirty barrel. Approximately 20 rounds down range before heading back out this past weekend to retest and verify. I know I know leaving a dirty barrel in my safe after shooting has been extremely hard and goes against everything I was taught over the years. But it works! At least it did last weekend. I'll duplicate the process this next weekend if the weather cooperates and let you know how it goes.

 

[Seabeeken]

This barrel is finally starting to shoot after 125rnds. This load is a 190smk @2910. SD is running 1.7fps and ES is 8 for 10rounds. The sights are adjusted .2 mills left so I don't shoot out the point on the diamond First 2 are cold bore and confirmation then .3 down and the 5 in the group. I then went to 2 and 300.to confirm it will shoot and put it away. If you can see the bottom diamond it has 2 touching and one about an inch and 1/2 below. That is a problem child 308 rem700 I've spent way too much time on. That rifle has never shot well 410rnds to date. It will have a new barrel before it goes back to the range.

I had a Savage 223 that looked like that barrel but slightly worse. It would copper foul in 2 shots. Put a new 20VT barrel on it and its a tack driver now

 

[Pudgy]

1 it takes a minimum of 10 shots to get meaningful results (the more, the better data)

Getting low SD/ES has become fairly simple. If I have low numbers but poor groups/fliers it generally because the load is too hot.
I keep backing down til I get consistent.2 to .4 groups.

For me consistency is the key to low SD/ES.

Most important- good brass and bullets (consistent bullet weight and bearing surface)

Consistent headspace is often overlooked and has a big impact as well as the right primer.
Generally not loading hot helps.
Amp Anneal every time, Henderson trim,
I full body neck size & mandrel (however know others that don't mandrel and they get low es/Sd)
SuperTrickler powder dispense +/- .02.
Good temp stable powder helps to keep things in tune.

Shoot ladder in 3-shot groups to find my powder node.

Usually if I follow these steps, within 21-30 rounds I find my load. Then fine tune.

 

[Pudgy]

1 it takes a minimum of 10 shots to get meaningful results (the more, the better data)

Getting low SD/ES has become fairly simple. If I have low numbers but poor groups/fliers it generally because the load is too hot.
I keep backing down til I get consistent.2 to .4 groups.

For me consistency is the key to low SD/ES.

Most important- good brass and bullets (consistent bullet weight and bearing surface)

Consistent headspace is often overlooked and has a big impact as well as the right primer.
Generally not loading hot helps.
Amp Anneal every time, Henderson trim,
I full body neck size & mandrel (however know others that don't mandrel and they get low es/Sd)
SuperTrickler powder dispense +/- .02.
Good temp stable powder helps to keep things in tune.

Shoot ladder in 3-shot groups to find my powder node.

Usually if I follow these steps, within 21-30 rounds I find my load. Then fine tune.

Todays load development. First pic is 16 shots to find my charge. 2-shots each in .4 increments over 2.8 grain.
Second pic Settled on 56.78 H4350. 6-shot data/ 3022 fps SD 1.2-ES 4 .32 group.

SD 1.2

 

[Longtine88]

Very nice pudgy. You and I are on the same page for sure. I'll add also multiple shooting days shooting and confirming a load over varying conditions. Perfect.