Cartridges That Need to be Revamped or Revived

[jbronner13]

There is always chatter on the boards about cartridges that are dying and don't deserve to or ones that aren't being used to their full potential, lots of activity discussing that old fogey 270 Winchester recently thanks to the sexy new 6.8 Western. I figured we should start a thread where we can talk about the issue and maybe some of the handloaders here can do some tinkering to give these dead or dying cartridges a new lease on life. What are some of the cartridges out there that you all think have potential and should be much more popular and prevalent than they are today? What is holding these cartridges back and how do we fix the issues? Here are a few I think could use a little love and attention:

1) 350 Remington Magnum
2) 8mm Remington Magnum
3) 284 Winchester
4) 6.5x55 SE
5) 6.5-06 A- Square
6) 338 Federal

 

[carlbobh]

6.5 Remington Magnum

 

[Muddyboots]

Easy button:
.270 Win has case capacity, longer neck for monos, in 700 LA extremely long magazine COAL with right freebore and faster twist (1:8) becomes whole different cartridge. Lots of threads proving it out. New powders like RL26 that marry up with .270 increases its potential.

 

[lancetkenyon]

The problem with the 8mm RM is lack of bullet selection. Not many good ones in .325. That is why the .325WSM failed too. Might as well go to .338 and have a huge selection. Same could be said with .257 and .277 until Berger stepped up and led the charge for the heavy for caliber selections. Sierra took note with the .277 in the 175 TMK, and I hope they come out with some .257 offerings (other than the 131 Blackjack). A 135 TMK or 135 SMK would probably be very well met.

I think the .264WM with a faster twist would do well.

The .284 Win does OK with the BR crowd. It is just way better suited for an XM or LA rather than the no-man's-land SA.

The .270 Win is a classic, but falls behind the .280 Rem, again with twist rates and bullet selection. The .280AI steps it up even more, and is really gaining popularity.

The 6.5 RM should have done better than it did. It could come back, but has run it's course and been surpassed by a plethora of pther 6.5mm cartridges now.

 

[Justice1327]

My wife and I love our 338 Federal, but hard to find good ammo. I would like to see more 25-06 (AI too) and 257 Bob (AI too) rifles and ammo with modern day bullets/twist rates.

 

[Jtgraham01]

The .270 Win isn't dead, but bullet selection at 130g kills it at distance vs it's 6.5 cousins. I've got a heck of a .270 featherweight that I keep for my dad and it's lights out with a Sierra gameking. Like a real 1/2-1" at 200 yard rifle. But the ballistics get more challenged at 500. I'll never get rid of that rifle because it can't be beat for purpose driven hunting and sentimental value.

At the exact same point, I built a rifle for my son this year with custom components. I could choose anything, but knew the available components for 6.5 CM would serve him until such a place where he needed a magnum rifle with much larger animals. The .270 has a lot more kick but wouldn't provide any additional kill because I can push a 130 grain pill at 2900 fps easily with RL26.

Old one isn't broke. But I can't justify using it in a new build.

Also, kind of off topic but also relating to another post- 280 AI should be used darn near everywhere because of how fantastic 7mm projectiles are from 150-175g. I really want to build one at some point.

Finally, I think the .30-06 might be on "the list." Arguably the most versatile rifle ever in the US, but I almost never see anyone buy one who is shooting long range precision. Don't hate me for noticing the trend. But I just don't see very many unless it's an absolute stock rifle.

 

[Darryle]

I built a 338 Federal and a 358 Winchester AR. I love them both and both are very accurate, but I struggle to find suitable loads for the 338. It seems anything I throw in the 358 Winchester shoots as accurate.

I have a Swedish Mauser that my ex FIL gave me, it shoots minute of paper plate, there is so much throat erosion I am surprised it even fires.

Those are 2 rifles I need to get out and shoot. I need to find a great Mauser gunsmith and have the Mauser rebarreled .

 

[tribb]

Easy button:
.270 Win has case capacity, longer neck for monos, in 700 LA extremely long magazine COAL with right freebore and faster twist (1:8) becomes whole different cartridge. Lots of threads proving it out. New powders like RL26 that marry up with .270 increases its potential.

Sort of like a 270 weatherby?

 

[sedancowboy]

Sit back and enjoy because this could be a long post. I have seen several of this type of post lately.
Someone has a favorite cartridge and wonders why the industry has seemingly abandoned it. Well the answer is SAMMI. We in the USA have industrial standards and different areas have different controlling societies. Automobiles for instance have standards so that Goodyear can make tires that fit all autos.
So the gun industry is no different. Since guns are mass produced in factories and most gun manufactures do not make ammo then we pass standards so Winchester can make ammo for a Remington rifle and vis-versa. It is not as simple as changing a twist rate to improve a old cartridge.
If you change the twist rate to allow a heavier bullet to stabilize then it would not stabilize in the standard twist barrel. So when Joe Blow goes to Walmart and buys a box of ammo and has poor performance from his new ammo with a heavy bullet that he has been reading about in all the gun rags. Who does he blame, The ammo maker for making ammo that was not suited for his rifle or the gun manufacture who made his gun 30 years ago and had no idea then that we would be making heavy for caliber bullets and the better performance they provide. It is not as simple as just changing the twist rate or lengthening the throat for the heavies to improve a old cartridge.
I am guilty and one of my favorite rifles is a 270 WSM with a 1/8 twist and throated for the 170 Bergers. However it will not shoot factory ammo because if you try and fit nickel plated cartridges in it they won't fit.
You can begin to see that while we are free to change and modify cartridges as we see fit they do not meet the SAMMI standard and therefore would be a nightmare for rifle and ammo manufactures to change the specifications at will.
Enjoy your old cartridge of choice. Don't harp on companies for coming out with a new cartridge. Winchester did not come out with the 6.8 Western for any other reason except the 270 WSM is set in stone and they can not change the specs at will. We want to modernize old cartridges but the system does not allow us to change the specs and that is a good thing.
The public has a right to look on the barrel of their current rifle and see what cartridge it is chambered in and go buy that specific ammo and know that it will fit and function well and safely.
Henry

 

[Frank in the Laurels]

Clearly in the "big game" hunting world..the 8mm rem mag !!!! BigGreen has a habit of sabotaging their own cartridges ... truly the perfect big game cartridge, too bad BigGreen put junk bullets in it that people shot at high velocity at close ranges..a recipe for disaster... the 8mm rem mag, the cartridge none of the young whiper-snappers never heard of..put a Partition or X-bullet in her and take on the world...a real shame it is almost obsolete. !!

 

[med358-boise]

1) FYI - SAAMI specs are voluntary. What prevents cartridge manufacturers from offering specialized long range ammo is demand.

2) The vast majority of hunters and shooters don't handload.

3) Those that do handload often do it to save money and are usually not into eeking out the last bit of performance, they are happy with 1/4 inch groups.

4) Hunters and shooters attempting to maximize performance are less than 10% of the hunting and shooting public.

5) the folks who own the cartridges you mention love them because guess what - they know they can handlod the 6.5 swede to outperform the 6.5 creedmoor.

 

[jbronner13]

Sit back and enjoy because this could be a long post. I have seen several of this type of post lately.
Someone has a favorite cartridge and wonders why the industry has seemingly abandoned it. Well the answer is SAMMI. We in the USA have industrial standards and different areas have different controlling societies. Automobiles for instance have standards so that Goodyear can make tires that fit all autos.
So the gun industry is no different. Since guns are mass produced in factories and most gun manufactures do not make ammo then we pass standards so Winchester can make ammo for a Remington rifle and vis-versa. It is not as simple as changing a twist rate to improve a old cartridge.
If you change the twist rate to allow a heavier bullet to stabilize then it would not stabilize in the standard twist barrel. So when Joe Blow goes to Walmart and buys a box of ammo and has poor performance from his new ammo with a heavy bullet that he has been reading about in all the gun rags. Who does he blame, The ammo maker for making ammo that was not suited for his rifle or the gun manufacture who made his gun 30 years ago and had no idea then that we would be making heavy for caliber bullets and the better performance they provide. It is not as simple as just changing the twist rate or lengthening the throat for the heavies to improve a old cartridge.
I am guilty and one of my favorite rifles is a 270 WSM with a 1/8 twist and throated for the 170 Bergers. However it will not shoot factory ammo because if you try and fit nickel plated cartridges in it they won't fit.
You can begin to see that while we are free to change and modify cartridges as we see fit they do not meet the SAMMI standard and therefore would be a nightmare for rifle and ammo manufactures to change the specifications at will.
Enjoy your old cartridge of choice. Don't harp on companies for coming out with a new cartridge. Winchester did not come out with the 6.8 Western for any other reason except the 270 WSM is set in stone and they can not change the specs at will. We want to modernize old cartridges but the system does not allow us to change the specs and that is a good thing.
The public has a right to look on the barrel of their current rifle and see what cartridge it is chambered in and go buy that specific ammo and know that it will fit and function well and safely.
Henry

I get your points by and agree to some extent but the SAAMI specs on the 6.5x55 SE from what I am understand are simply there for all the old military rifles chambered for that cartridge than can't withstand high pressure modern cartridges. Yet we have many modern rifle manufacturers chambering new rifles in those cartridges (Sako and Tikka come to mind) and they are essentially handicapping the cartridge. I know this is only one example of an underpowered cartridge but I am sure there are others out there with the same problem, my guess is a lot of the old European military cartridges but that's a whole other can of worms with their oddball hunting laws regarding ex-military cartridges not being deemed suitable for civilian hunting use.

That being said there are also some great cartridges out there that were botched from the their inception by poor twist rates, poor rifle choices, suboptimal barrel length, etc. I know that SAAMI Is the reason for some cartridges never evolving, but some never had a chance! The 350 Remington Magnum or it's ballistic twin the 35 Whelen strike me as two cartridges that should be a lot more popular than they are given their usefulness in a variety of hunting scenarios and for the majority of big game in the lower 48 (albeit not at long range). But come on Remington….18 inch barrel rolling that cartridge out in the Model 600 with that hideous plastic trigger guard and shark fin? Then later the almost equally awful 673. Don't get me wrong, I actually love the 600/660 models, just not for the 350 Rem Mag or 6.5 Rem Mag and they should have made a few little changes to that rifle to make it the perfect handy little woods gun. Another fantastic heavy timber shorter range thumper the 338 Federal comes to mind as a head scratcher for why it never caught on. It has all of the elements to make a great brush gun: stopping power, good bullet selection, tolerable kick, good accuracy….no buyers. I did no man, I guess that's why we can handload.

 

[med358-boise]

The likelihood is that anybody who buys a Tikka. Sako, or Rem Classic in 6.5 Swede is going to handload for it because they know about the lower spec so they are going to load it to ~62000 PSI.

 

[338weatherby]

I'll play and add the 7x57 in either standard or AI form. Loaded up to pressure in modern rifles, it's a great cartridge. More nostalgic then the 7-08 and also sexier loaded with 160 AB's.