Cartridge Efficiency vs Recoil

[MikeD31]

I've been considering a 300WM recently and have been reading about cartridge efficiency, overbore and the like. I came across something regarding powder charge weights and their relationship to recoil in short mag's vs standard length magnums. Maybe those of you who own or have shot both can enlighten me.

I read that a 300 WSM (for example) can produce near identical muzzle velocities as a 300 WM with the same bullet with say...10% less powder. But that recoil would somehow be less. It would seem to me that all things being equal (rifle weight, barrel length etc), the amount of force required to drive the same bullet to the same velocity would require the same amount of force to be exerted by the propellant and thus recoil force should be the same. Perhaps the recoil impulse, a longer push vs a sharp stab, would be different due to different burn rates required by each cartridge?

More scientific curiosity than anything. What has been your experience?

Mike

 

[MajorSpittle]

Like you stated, both bullets would develop the same amount of recoil with all things being equal. I don't think a "gentler push" of a recoil could be developed from an event that happens in ~ .001 seconds, at least not to be felt by a 180lb man.

disclaimer: I am just guessing, my specialty is in drinking beer.

 

[blinderthanascope]

I've been considering a 300WM recently and have been reading about cartridge efficiency, overbore and the like. I came across something regarding powder charge weights and their relationship to recoil in short mag's vs standard length magnums. Maybe those of you who own or have shot both can enlighten me.

I read that a 300 WSM (for example) can produce near identical muzzle velocities as a 300 WM with the same bullet with say...10% less powder. But that recoil would somehow be less. It would seem to me that all things being equal (rifle weight, barrel length etc), the amount of force required to drive the same bullet to the same velocity would require the same amount of force to be exerted by the propellant and thus recoil force should be the same. Perhaps the recoil impulse, a longer push vs a sharp stab, would be different due to different burn rates required by each cartridge?

More scientific curiosity than anything. What has been your experience?

Mike

there is a live test I think on Accurate shooter where a guy does some test has a gun setup in a rail type system, and measures recoil from diff guns calibers etc, you should be able to find something on this somewhere

 

[Wild Bill G]

Burning less powder with the same weight bullet will reduce recoil. The WSM cartrgee I believe are designed to operate at a higher pressure. This gives them the ability to produce higher velocity than we would think they should.
The more powder you birn with a given bullet weight the more the recoil simple physics. What can reduce felt recoil is a heavier firearm all else being equal.

 

[Barrelnut]

I always thought the following was a cool little chart. It gives recoil versus rifle weight, cartridge, and bullet weight.

With 180 gr. bullet, in the same weight rifle, a 300 WSM has about 8% less recoil than a 300 Win Mag. So total amount of powder burned does affect recoil, even for same weight bullets. Just not much. I think Wild Bill is right, shorter case with less volume, and faster, and more uniform ignition creates higher pressure.

Rifle Recoil Table

 

[MajorSpittle]

Burning less powder with the same weight bullet will reduce recoil. The WSM cartrgee I believe are designed to operate at a higher pressure. This gives them the ability to produce higher velocity than we would think they should.
The more powder you birn with a given bullet weight the more the recoil simple physics. What can reduce felt recoil is a heavier firearm all else being equal.

How much recoil is created when firing a blank? I believe the vast vast majority of recoil is from launching the bullet. The barrel with the little bit of powder is not very much of a rocket engine to create thrust, or in this case recoil.

 

[Wild Bill G]

There is very little recoil generated in firing a blank. This is because the bullet is puttig up resistance to the burning powder. It takes more energy to get a heavier object moving than a lifgr one or in the case of a blank nothing at all. As I stated earlier though a heavy bullet with a light charge will not kick as much as that same bullet with a heavy charge. This not saying though that a light bullet with a heavy charge could not create more recoil than a heavy bullet with a light charge. Not sure on recoil numbers but a 257Wby firing a 100gr. bullet probably generates more recoil than a 30-30 firing a 170gr bullet. The reason being that the 257 is using almost twice as much powder. However the closer the ratio becomes the recoil will begin to even out until the heavy bullet surpasses the light one in recoil produced.
I hope this helps. The felt recoil can be reduced with a heavier gun or a muzzle break or one of the new recoil pad systems out there.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

T...Not sure on recoil numbers but a 257Wby firing a 100gr. bullet probably generates more recoil than a 30-30 firing a 170gr bullet. The reason being that the 257 is using almost twice as much powder. However the closer the ratio becomes the recoil will begin to even out until the heavy bullet surpasses the light one in recoil produced.
I hope this helps. The felt recoil can be reduced with a heavier gun or a muzzle break or one of the new recoil pad systems out there.

Yes that 257 Weatherby will punch you harder than a 30-30. Having both and much more I can tell you things like a 45-70 throwing a 400 grain bullet will still give a decent punch. Full house WOW.

Felt recoil can be mitigated by all three things mentioned. Heavier rifle, muzzle brake, good recoil pad.

I know there is a formula here somewhere, however, I can't find it.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

Recoil Calculator

 

[FEENIX]

Recoil Calculator

lightbulbYep, best one I've seen and used for comparative analysis.lightbulb

 

[Deleted member 46119]

lightbulbYep, best one I've seen and used for comparative analysis.lightbulb

It says shooting my 460 Weatherby is gonna be exciting.

 

[Wild Bill G]

I like your defintion of shooting a 460Wthby exciting. Painful would come to a lot of peoples minds lol. Something that is often left out of the felt recoil equation is stock style or shape. However I forget the recoil numbers for the 460 something like 120ft/lbs of energy that is just plain hard to hide

 

[Deleted member 46119]

I like your defintion of shooting a 460Wthby exciting. Painful would come to a lot of peoples minds lol. Something that is often left out of the felt recoil equation is stock style or shape. However I forget the recoil numbers for the 460 something like 120ft/lbs of energy that is just plain hard to hide

Yup. 80 to 120ft/lb.

I'm putting it together because the 338-378 barrel is toast, previous owner, not disclosed, still worth the price.

No brake at the moment. It might not stay that way.

 

[J E Custom]

There are two kinds of recoil when firing a cartridge here is an expiation that may help.

www.jecustom.com - FAQ's

So If the bullet weight is the same and velocity is the same, the only thing that changes is the amount of powder and this will effect the "Gas Recoil". If less powder is used the end results will be less recoil.

A more efficient case design will normally need less powder to produce the same velocity. the reason is that the power curve will be different and have more time at peak pressure Due to flame
front differences. (The shorter fatter case produces higher pressures sooner and therefore can match velocities with less powder) Less powder produces less gas recoil because of less volume of gas.

Muzzle brakes can only effect the gas recoil and interestingly enough the higher the powder weight,
the higher the recoil but the more efficient the brake is.

So even though the 300 WSM can match the 300 WM in velocity, it will produce less recoil because of less powder.

J E CUSTOM