Can I get less than half MOA from "MY" factory barrel.

[ajhardle]

I just got my savage 12fv back after being pillar bedded, trued and recrowned. I was so excited to go shoot tiny groups, but it doesn't shoot consistently under 1/2 moa with anything. I bought a concentricity guage and reduced run-out to less than .002 (less than .001 in quite a few), but they shoot no better than my old loads (with over .005 more than a few cases). My reasoning is that because I feed it quality loads the loads, the worst groups are usually less than 1, and 1/2 is so easy to find, my rifle might be holding back. I here about people expecting 1/4 moa out of these. Can you offer any insight?

 

[Gene]

Very few factory rifles will shoot 1/4th in. groups at 100 yds no matter what you do. There are many factors in this equation. You need - very good front and rear rest, good scope and mounts, good gun handling technique, reloads precisely made to suit your rifle, good barrel, and a whole buncha others. Quality bullets are a must. Correct powder, primers reloading dies are required. You need to experiment with everything before you can decide.

 

[Greyfox]

There are more than a dozen shooters at at my club that shoot stock, heavy barrel Savage target and varmint rifles, and even a few hunting rifles that produce sub .5MOA groups. They can do it with the right load and skills. Not all of them can do it and its difficult to determine the exact reason. I agree with the prior post, that while we see a lot of .25" groups, doing it on a regular basis, especially 5 shot groups, requires a whole lot more in the way of concentration, shooting technique, and rifle rest equipment in addition to the capability of rifle and load used. It's important to note that I'm not talking about Benchrest rigs and sophisticated rests shooting free recoil and 6oz. triggers. That's a different ball game. I have three Savage rifles that have shot .25MOA groups or better on several occasions, but I am more likely to produce .5MOA on a regular basis. I'm sure it's me and not the rifle.

 

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

I just got my savage 12fv back after being pillar bedded, trued and recrowned. I was so excited to go shoot tiny groups, but it doesn't shoot consistently under 1/2 moa with anything. I bought a concentricity guage and reduced run-out to less than .002 (less than .001 in quite a few), but they shoot no better than my old loads (with over .005 more than a few cases). My reasoning is that because I feed it quality loads the loads, the worst groups are usually less than 1, and 1/2 is so easy to find, my rifle might be holding back. I here about people expecting 1/4 moa out of these. Can you offer any insight?

Need more info, bullet used, barrel twist, range tested, how was rifle supported? You need to add every conceivable detail so we don't have to ask.

 

[megastink]

For what it's worth, I have a Savage 10FP .308 that shoots about 1/2 MOA at 100 yards consistently with factory Hornady Custom 168gr A-Max rounds. That's good enough for me, considering a 300 yard shot is very far here in Northeast Pennsylvania.

So, yes, I think it's possible, albeit very rare.

 

[Joe King]

I have exactly 1 rifle that will do that, it's a Rem 788 in 243, It's done it with 3 different loads. But it won't group good with just anything, some stuff that should be accurate it will pattern not group. When it likes something though.............. My dads savage 110 06 will shoot 1/2moa day in day out with it's current load. Like greyfox I'm the weak link in the whole equation, I figure on any given day I'm about 1/2moa, on a very rare good day I can get down to 1/4moa but it doesn't last and like I said rarely happens. My other rifles that have been gone through and have match barrels, I can't fully take advantage of them.

 

[Dr. Vette]

Need more info, bullet used, barrel twist, range tested, how was rifle supported? You need to add every conceivable detail so we don't have to ask.

Agreed.

I have rifles with factory barrels - one a Savage 110FP similar to yours still in its plastic stock and with a cheap scope - that will do it.
However, as noted above there are many factors.

One of my rifles had several targets from the previous owner included when I bought it earlier this year. I was able to beat his 100 yard targets at 200 yards with the same ammo because I use the same system of shooting every time, placing emphasis on repeatability and support.

So yes, it's definitely possible. However, some rifles will never get close to this no matter what you do. For those there is Gunbroker.

 

[green 788]

a mediocre rifle with a great load will outshoot a great rifle with a mediocre load 10 out of 10 times...

so it's more the song--not the singer (notwithstanding what Mick and the Stones say)...

go here, and develop your load commensurate with these instructions... and things should come under 1/2 MOA for you in short order.

OCW Overview - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

Dan

 

[rscott5028]

I just got my savage 12fv back after being pillar bedded, trued and recrowned. I was so excited to go shoot tiny groups, but it doesn't shoot consistently under 1/2 moa with anything. I bought a concentricity guage and reduced run-out to less than .002 (less than .001 in quite a few), but they shoot no better than my old loads (with over .005 more than a few cases). My reasoning is that because I feed it quality loads the loads, the worst groups are usually less than 1, and 1/2 is so easy to find, my rifle might be holding back. I here about people expecting 1/4 moa out of these. Can you offer any insight?

One thing that seems amiss here is that you said the action was "trued" yet you have the factory barrel.

Truing the action usually involves squaring the face of the receiver and then chasing the threads which makes the threads ~.010" oversized and will no longer provide the desired snug thread fit with your factory barrel. Hence, you'd need to buy an aftermarket barrel if the receiver was truly trued in that manner.

-- richard

 

[ajhardle]

Here is my equipment.
Rifle: savage 12 in .223 with 1 in 9" twist. Boyd laminate stock with aluminum pillars and Devcon bed. By trued action, I meant squared the reciever face and lugs. Millet 6-24 lrs scope.
Loads technique: Start with new brass. full length size, then trim length, inside outside beburr, turn necks to remove metal almost 360 degrees on most brass, flashhole deburr and primer pocket uniform. After first firing, i will size with a lee collett n.s. die, (when i f/l size, the neck consricts too small and when i seat it introduces alot of run out. Bullet cant measured in runout near the meplat was measured as high as .03 from f/l sized brass. neck sizing with .001 neck consriction has reduced this reading to under .005 for all pieces, and less than half that for most. but groups didn't seem to shrink.

I trickle all powder as accurately as i can w/ an RCBS 50 50 scale.

I think my kids took my notebook, so these group sizes will be as best i can remember off the top of my head.

53 gr. smk: i started at 22.2gr of VV n133 and shot up to 23.4. goup sizes started near 2" and alternated between 1 and 1.5" near 22.8 gr. ( i shoot all groups at 200 right now because 100 yards is crowded with people trying to figure out why they can't hit paper.)

69 gr remington match loads shot 1.5"
i had some 70 gr bergers loade with about 24.5 gr of vv n140(metered not weighed) that shot about 1.5". I am going to develope a load for these, hoping they're my magic ticket.

75gr hornady match loads shot around 1.5" if i remember.

My favorite is the 75 gr amax. At 4300 elev. sg is about 1.15. not ideal for short range, but it has exceeded my expectations at long range.
i started at 23.7 gr of varget that shot 2" groups. at 24 gr it shrinks to a very consistent 1" all the way to 24.4 gr. 24.5 would shot 5 shot a group near 1" once and 1.5 and 1.7" and 24.7 was about 2" so i would say i found my node.
vertical dispersion at 800 and 900 is always sub moa.

77 smk shot close to 1.75" with n140. never better than 1.5.

my front rest is a caldwell competition benchrest rest. rear is a protektor bag on a wood block i routed out for a perfect fit with scews threaded through to bite in the concrete bench.

As for technique, i've spent countless hours laying on my basement floor practicing calming techniques, my pauses between breathes, and for trigger feel. I count one to engage the accu trigger sear safety(whatever it's called), count two is pressure on trigger, and three is a tiny bit more pressure to fire. i practice holding at two, so the smallest amount of pressure will fully engage.
I usually shoot this rifle free recoil, but i have been firming up my hold just to try it, and i have had to call a couple flyers. It did make me feel good see those shots go where i thought they would, but that turned some 1" groups into 1.5". back to free recoil.

I work hard to reduce paralax to nothing. and i will make targets or shoot at a spot for best picture. corner of a square usually. the reticle is motionless (usually, sometimes i ignore better judgement,), at least until the sun is up when i shoot, and i almost always see my reticle on target replaced by a white flash when the shot goes off.
A couple asked for more details. Sorry for writing a novel. Did i miss anything?

 

[Bart B]

One thing that seems amiss here is that you said the action was "trued" yet you have the factory barrel. . . .Truing the action usually involves squaring the face of the receiver and then chasing the threads which makes the threads ~.010" oversized and will no longer provide the desired snug thread fit with your factory barrel. Hence, you'd need to buy an aftermarket barrel if the receiver was truly trued in that manner.

Some actions are trued good enough by just facing the receiver front square with the thread axis. Then use a shim to clock the barrel in for correct headspace. You don't need to open up the barrel tenon threads, just square up the front relative to their axis.

 

[ajhardle]

I guess what I'm getting at is that if I am spending so much time to create perfect loads, but not getting them to shoot better than decent loads, maybe my barrel is the problem.

 

[green 788]

I wouldn't suspect the barrel just yet.

First, if you have some 69 grain bullets on hand, try working up to 24.5 grains of Varget.

If you don't have any 69's... work up to 23.6 grains of Varget with the 75 grain bullets.

Use Winchester or Remington or Hornady or equivalent brass. If you're using Federal (FC) cases, there's your problem right there.

If neither of those loads work, there IS something wrong.

First, check scope mounts and such, then suspect the Millet scope. Swap it out for another scope and retest above loads.

If the rifle won't shoot with one of the recipes mentioned above, with a different scope... then you might want to look at the barrel--but I'm really doubting the barrel is the issue, as Savage uses button rifled barrels and they're extremely reliable (even the ones with chattered up chambers still seem to shoot good) ...

Dan

 

[rscott5028]

Some actions are trued good enough by just facing the receiver front square with the thread axis. Then use a shim to clock the barrel in for correct headspace. You don't need to open up the barrel tenon threads, just square up the front relative to their axis.

that's why I said, "usually"

and if it were me, I'd usually replace the factory barrel with a good custom barrel at the same time

a rifle is a shooting system, you can't just replace one part and expect X MOA in return

sometimes a trigger job is all it takes and sometimes more

-- richard