Doom2
Well-Known Member
Curious. What method do you use to clean your brass?
Bullet Weld
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Definitely no galling.
baldhunter
Well-Known Member
Seat the bullets just a little deeper and they will be easier to pull.I pulled the bullets on some 300WSM cartridges that I had loaded about ten years ago.I never had any split necks with this cartridge.I lost about half the cases due to the necks splitting when I pulled the bullets.I guess the cases had been fired several time and the brass was starting to harden.Over the years,the harden brass holding the bullet under tension,apparently becomes very brittle.I don't think softer brass would have split like these cases did.I guess this also makes a good case to anneal your brass too.
Doom2
Well-Known Member
There have numerous-cases of necks separating at the shoulder or at the shoulder to body junction which may be a clue to what is occurring with bullet. These are the most highly stressed areas of the case along with the interference fit between the bullet and neck.
I have seen some photos bullets that could not be removed and in those cases there appeared to be corrosion products.
The most likely corrosion mechanism for brass is stress corrosion and the most likely cause is ammonia compounds. If we were using Brasso the answer would be obvious. Since that is not the case we need to consider how other forms of contamination can occur and what role internal stresses may play.
Wet Cleaning: Ultrasonic and wet tumbling using normal tap water can introduce chemicals that may be detrimental to the brass. Based on my experience trying ultrasonic, even when rinsing in distilled water, I noticed deposits after drying and quit using that method.
Dry Tumbling: it's possible that polishing additives not desiged for brass to be a potential source of chemical contamination.
Annealing: Cooling by immersing the case in water may be potential problem. In particular if the annealing is done prior to case cleaning then the case has multiple combustion products and the case is at elevated temperature.
Obviously, the likelihood of stress corrosion increases as the brass is reloaded and resized between annealings which increases the likelihood of stress corrosion. While it shouldn't be the cause, excessive neck tension can increase the likelihood of stress corrosion.
Without chemical analysis of the cases and bullets we can only speculate what may be happening.
I am not a metallurgist and my experience with corrosion has predominantly been with carbon, low alloy and exotic high temperature chrome/nickel steels, Brass is a different animal. But I highly suspect that contact with water is the most likely cause of this phenomenon.
I have seen some photos bullets that could not be removed and in those cases there appeared to be corrosion products.
The most likely corrosion mechanism for brass is stress corrosion and the most likely cause is ammonia compounds. If we were using Brasso the answer would be obvious. Since that is not the case we need to consider how other forms of contamination can occur and what role internal stresses may play.
Wet Cleaning: Ultrasonic and wet tumbling using normal tap water can introduce chemicals that may be detrimental to the brass. Based on my experience trying ultrasonic, even when rinsing in distilled water, I noticed deposits after drying and quit using that method.
Dry Tumbling: it's possible that polishing additives not desiged for brass to be a potential source of chemical contamination.
Annealing: Cooling by immersing the case in water may be potential problem. In particular if the annealing is done prior to case cleaning then the case has multiple combustion products and the case is at elevated temperature.
Obviously, the likelihood of stress corrosion increases as the brass is reloaded and resized between annealings which increases the likelihood of stress corrosion. While it shouldn't be the cause, excessive neck tension can increase the likelihood of stress corrosion.
Without chemical analysis of the cases and bullets we can only speculate what may be happening.
I am not a metallurgist and my experience with corrosion has predominantly been with carbon, low alloy and exotic high temperature chrome/nickel steels, Brass is a different animal. But I highly suspect that contact with water is the most likely cause of this phenomenon.
In my case, the load was 338 LM with new Lapua brass, full length sized and Berger 300 grain OTM's with RL33 powder. I was taking long range precision rifle classes over a three month period and loaded 400 rounds ahead to start. Two months into this I needed to adjust seating depth and found this condition. I never experienced it to my knowledge with any loads before this. This was also my fist time loading a quantity of new brass.
Something you said above got my attention though. I am now using Vihtavouri N570 powder, and the rifle smells strongly like ammonia after shooting these loads. To the point of smelling corosive, I will not put it away till it stops producing that odor.
It must be an additive in the N570.
I do lube my case necks and bullets with powdered graphite now in hopes of eliminating the problem. I have not experienced the problem since, and am very conscious about neck tension and lowering extreme spread of my loads. I do need to get an anealer next though. This is an interesting and I believe very important subject to cover.
Laelkhunter
Well-Known Member
Tumble (actually vibrate in Frankford Arsenal vibrator) in walnut media with Flitz Tumbler/Media polish. Tumble right after firing, and again after resizing. I clean them as soon as I get home- I found they are easier to clean if I tumble them right away instead of waiting until I want to reload them weeks later. And I don't use any type of neck lube (inside the mouth of the case).
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jimbires
Well-Known Member
I've ran into this problem too . you guys that have , or had this problem , are you wearing latex gloves when loading ? I don't , but I've always wondered if skin oils could be a culprit .
baldhunter
Well-Known Member
The way I do mine now is,after resizing,I tumble in Lizard Litter ground walnut hulls without any other additives for an hour or two.When I get ready to load,I lube the bore with powdered graphite.Since I started doing it this way I haven't had any problems.
jimbires
Well-Known Member
I've been using powder graphite in my case necks too . since I've started doing this I've had no problems , that I know of .The way I do mine now is,after resizing,I tumble in Lizard Litter ground walnut hulls without any other additives for an hour or two.When I get ready to load,I lube the bore with powdered graphite.Since I started doing it this way I haven't had any problems.
Doom2
Well-Known Member
I can't say I've experienced this but the combustion of a high nitrogen compound containing hydrogen could potentially produce ammonia compounds. This does bring up the possibility of ammonia deposits in the case. Quite simply just bringing a cold fired case inside to a warm, moist environment could result in condensation and now you have aqueous ammonia!
Can't figure what is going on with the new brass.
Here is something that seems to be a possibility.
Take a look and see what you think.
Two dissimilar metals
Very clean
Pressure
could this be the cause?
I found this in a 2019 post on LRH
@bill123
Well-Known Member
FYI in an interview, Tubb said that he loads large amounts of ammo in advance but seats the bullets long. When he's ready to shoot a batch, he re-seats the rounds he will use, breaking the weld and giving the bullets a fresh seat.
It's one of the Long Range Shooters of Utah YouTube interviews
@bill123
Well-Known Member
FYI in an interview, Tubb said that he loads large amounts of ammo in advance but seats the bullets long. When he's ready to shoot a batch, he re-seats the rounds he will use, breaking the weld and giving the bullets a fresh seat.
It's one of the Long Range Shooters of Utah YouTube interviews
lancetkenyon
Well-Known Member
This ^. I deal with specialty geounding systems on a daily basis. Brass and copper do not get dissimilar metals corrosion.
Here's another.
Tubb said can happen in 3 months
@DartonJager
Well-Known Member
I have been reading over the last 18-20 months about a phenomenon where the bullets for lack of a better description "cold welds" to the brass. I've seen a few
articles by well known long range competitors, David Tubb chief among them claiming that bullets especially ones left loaded for extended periods of 3 or more months basically cold weld to the inside of the case neck
and upon firing result in higher than normal pressures causing inaccuracy issues in the form of vertical stringing at longer ranges
Tubb said can happen in 3 months
@DartonJager
Well-Known Member
I have been reading over the last 18-20 months about a phenomenon where the bullets for lack of a better description "cold welds" to the brass. I've seen a few
articles by well known long range competitors, David Tubb chief among them claiming that bullets especially ones left loaded for extended periods of 3 or more months basically cold weld to the inside of the case neck
and upon firing result in higher than normal pressures causing inaccuracy issues in the form of vertical stringing at longer ranges
