"Blueprinted"

[ntsqd]

What I'd like to know is, if the action was "Blueprinted" what blueprint was used and were the print's tolerances deemed acceptable or were the various dimensions tuned to a tighter than "blueprint" tolerance? If this is a Rem 700 action, was it a Rem 700 print that was used? And if it was, what is the date of that print because clearly the older prints had tighter tols than the new prints do.

Like jarnold, I guess what I'm saying is that the term "blueprinted" means nothing because the definition is too ambiguous. Ask what the actual work performed was and to what tolerance that work was done to.

 

[P7M13]

At the low end of the integrity spectrum, it has about the same meaning as "rare" on flea-bay.
When actual machining is done, the quality and attentiveness of the machinist really matters.
Some should have their tools taken away and given a 'dunce' cap. Others, in a rare camp, are artisans.

 

[FEENIX]

What I'd like to know is, if the action was "Blueprinted" what blueprint was used and were the print's tolerances deemed acceptable or were the various dimensions tuned to a tighter than "blueprint" tolerance? If this is a Rem 700 action, was it a Rem 700 print that was used? And if it was, what is the date of that print because clearly the older prints had tighter tols than the new prints do.

Like jarnold, I guess what I'm saying is that the term "blueprinted" means nothing because the definition is too ambiguous. Ask what the actual work performed was and to what tolerance that work was done to.

You are looking at blueprinting literally instead of the process of improving the tolerances of the bolt and action. You are correct, gunsmiths/gun builders with many years of hands-on experience do not use a blueprint (a piece of paper that provides guidance) to true up the action because they do not need it. They do however know what it takes to improve the tolerances and its end result. Look at the video link on my previous post and forget the word blueprinting for a moment and concentrate on the improvement made/tighter tolerances or end result.

With your Remington 700 action example, they are built to factory spec (blueprint). So even if the gunsmiths has the factory blueprint, they know they can improve the mass produced factory machine work as noted by Kevin Cram in the video.

 

[ntsqd]

I'm looking at it literally to illustrate in just how ambiguous the term is. This comes from long association with the term as applied to engines, where it is similarly ambiguous. Mostly because those "blueprints" are not easily found and if they were found they would be nearly useless to the goal of making the assembly perform better than OEM. After all, the tolerances found on those prints produced the level of performance that is objectionable. Why would you use the print(s) to try to make it work better?

Until I took the required Engineering Ethics class I did not know this, but Engineering part and assembly drawings are not just guidance, they are a legal document that is a contract. They define what the part or assembly should be and how much each dimension can vary from the designed dimension. If you give me a drawing to produce a part and I accept it I am legally obligated to produce that part within the dimensions on the drawing. If I do not produce parts within those dims then legally you're not obligated to pay me for the parts and I'm stuck with them because they're useless to you.

As an aside, "blueprint" is a name for a particular type of drawing that hasn't been used since the late 1960's to early 1970's. It seems that the ammonia used to produce that type of drawing was a health hazard. They were replaced by "Blue Line" drawings, which are also long out of date. These days they're almost always a .pdf, but no one is going to say "the action was .pdf'd".

 

[FEENIX]

I'm looking at it literally to illustrate in just how ambiguous the term is. This comes from long association with the term as applied to engines, where it is similarly ambiguous. Mostly because those "blueprints" are not easily found and if they were found they would be nearly useless to the goal of making the assembly perform better than OEM. After all, the tolerances found on those prints produced the level of performance that is objectionable. Why would you use the print(s) to try to make it work better?

Until I took the required Engineering Ethics class I did not know this, but Engineering part and assembly drawings are not just guidance, they are a legal document that is a contract. They define what the part or assembly should be and how much each dimension can vary from the designed dimension. If you give me a drawing to produce a part and I accept it I am legally obligated to produce that part within the dimensions on the drawing. If I do not produce parts within those dims then legally you're not obligated to pay me for the parts and I'm stuck with them because they're useless to you.

As an aside, "blueprint" is a name for a particular type of drawing that hasn't been used since the late 1960's to early 1970's. It seems that the ammonia used to produce that type of drawing was a health hazard. They were replaced by "Blue Line" drawings, which are also long out of date. These days they're almost always a .pdf, but no one is going to say "the action was .pdf'd".

Rule #1!

You are clearly still missing the point and stuck with what a blueprint is. I guess truing an action is not acceptable to you either. Like I said, even if the gunsmith has the OEM blueprint in whatever form they are available, whether on vellum, papyrus, stone tablet, or in PDF, they know it is not good enough and they will try to make it better. Oh well, I tried. Good luck!

 

[ntsqd]

We're in violent agreement, you're just not seeing it or I'm not doing a good enough job of explaining it.

EDIT: Not sure how mentioning the title of a college class is rules violation.

 

[FEENIX]

We're in violent agreement, you're just not seeing it or I'm not doing a good enough job of explaining it.

"IF" you are looking at it literally, then we are not in agreement. Regardless of what the process is called, all I care about is the end result. It's all good. Cheers!

 

[ntsqd]

I was using the literal to illustrate the fallacy of using the the word at all. It is a meaningless term that sounds like its something when it is nothing. No expert gunsmith or engine builder would use the production print for anything. They will derive and set their own tolerances that undoubtedly will be far better for performance than whatever the tols on the "blueprint" might be.

 

[BallisticsGuy]

When one word is used to describe hours of truing and squaring of an action it makes me think of the one word description sometimes usedof a motor that is advertised as "built." And when stated as "3/4 cam", my curiosity makes me wonder why a one word description of a camshaft is used when there are hundreds of different specifications and grinds available. One time I asked what is the lift and duration and the reply was, dont know that is just what the guy told me I got the car from. But I am sure someone woulde not exagerate and blindly label a precisely machined rifle action with just a single word like that. lol

This is exactly where I adopted the habit. I used to be a Mustang nut, still am a bit.

 

[FEENIX]

I was using the literal to illustrate the fallacy of using the the word at all. It is a meaningless term that sounds like its something when it is nothing. No expert gunsmith or engine builder would use the production print for anything. They will derive and set their own tolerances that undoubtedly will be far better for performance than whatever the tols on the "blueprint" might be.

That's why I keep referring to the "actual" process involved and stay from the fallacy of the word but you keep going back to it.

(SOURCE: https://mcrifles.com/services-/-price-list)

 

[ntsqd]

Yeah, but the point that you keep missing is that there in nothing in the design drawings that a Trued and Tuned action conforms to. The word "blueprint" not only doesn't apply, it can't because the results of a skilled person's re-working of the action (or engine) takes the resulting tolerance FAR beyond what the OEM intended for production. If you are determined to continue to label this process "blueprinting" then you're perpetuating an ambiguous misnomer. I contend that is more correctly called a "Trued" action as some of those who actually do the work refer to it by. The word has already fallen out of common use in the engines world, time to catch up.

 

[FEENIX]

Yeah, but the point that you keep missing is that there in nothing in the design drawings that a Trued and Tuned action conforms to. The word "blueprint" not only doesn't apply, it can't because the results of a skilled person's re-working of the action (or engine) takes the resulting tolerance FAR beyond what the OEM intended for production. If you are determined to continue to label this process "blueprinting" then you're perpetuating an ambiguous misnomer. I contend that is more correctly called a "Trued" action as some of those who actually do the work refer to it by. The word has already fallen out of common use in the engines world, time to catch up.

So "trued" is an acceptable word for you so be it. In fact, Kevin Cram noted it at the 40 min mark of the 1st video that I provided, but I guess you did not view it. The "actual" process remains the same. Actions that are out of tolerance from the factory keep gunsmiths fully employed.

 

[Wedgy]

"The action tenon is opened up .010" and new threads are cut concentric to bore. The action's locking lugs and face are squared and trued to center of bore. The bolt's lugs both front and rear are squared and trued center to bore as well as the bolt nose and face. All work is dialed into .0001" and single point cut to less than .001" tolerances. The above blueprinting process is much more precise than simply running a tap through the existing threads... All metal warps during heat treat and running a tap through is only cleaning up the threads appearance - chasing threads with a tap will not make the threads concentric to bore. To ensure the threads are concentric to bore the action's tenon needs to be opened up at least .010" and new threads will need to be cut. Lapping the lugs and squaring the face is NOT blueprinting. We encourage you to ask the Smith what EXACTLY they are doing for "blueprinting" services. You might be surprised at what exactly they ARE NOT doing. "

 

[Deleted member 115654]

If you buy a Savage action, the floating bolt head automatically aligns. One reason they are so accurate out of the box.