Best rifle to progressively build?

[Ragnarnar]

Or, a full custom action....

I said it initially, but a Surgeon 591 or similar will cost almost the same as fully done Remington, and will have better resale value. I do realize the thread is asking about "progressively building " a rifle, and what I have suggested is sorta the opposite of that. Speaking personally, I wish someone had told me that when I was starting out and that I had listened. Built Remington/savage rifles don't even come close to a good custom action.

Something with an integrated recoil lug is basically a switch barrel system if you know what you're doing.

Just clamp the barrel and wrench the action off. Then clamp your new barrel and torque to spec. If you wanted to, you could even have the gunsmith scribe a line on the bottom of the action and all the barrels when they are properly head spaced. Just connect the lines. You don't even need to check it with gauges (though you should) because it will come right back to where it was given the same torque.

Most (good) gunsmiths keep records of individual action dimensions and such, so for any one of my custom actions I can call up my gunsmith and say "I'd like a barrel in X caliber for XXXX serial number." He's able to cut, ream and shoulder the barrel without me having to send my action in. When I receive the barrel I just install it, check it with gauges and go shooting.

Best.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Or, a full custom action....

I said it initially, but a Surgeon 591 or similar will cost almost the same as fully done Remington, and will have better resale value. I do realize the thread is asking about "progressively building " a rifle, and what I have suggested is sorta the opposite of that. Speaking personally, I wish someone had told me that when I was starting out and that I had listened. Built Remington/savage rifles don't even come close to a good custom action.

Something with an integrated recoil lug is basically a switch barrel system if you know what you're doing.

Just clamp the barrel and wrench the action off. Then clamp your new barrel and torque to spec. If you wanted to, you could even have the gunsmith scribe a line on the bottom of the action and all the barrels when they are properly head spaced. Just connect the lines. You don't even need to check it with gauges (though you should) because it will come right back to where it was given the same torque.

Most (good) gunsmiths keep records of individual action dimensions and such, so for any one of my custom actions I can call up my gunsmith and say "I'd like a barrel in X caliber for XXXX serial number." He's able to cut, ream and shoulder the barrel without me having to send my action in. When I receive the barrel I just install it, check it with gauges and go shooting.

Best.

How does a fully blueprinted 700 not come close to a custom action? Once blueprinted and squared, the only differences are cosmetic, other than maybe the custom might be slightly beefed-up in a few other places, but with anything smaller than a full-bull 28" tube on it, the 700 isn't going to flex. I've shot factory, factory blueprinted, and custom...And to cut straight to the point, trued is trued, regardless of brand. The barrel is 75% of the accuracy equation as it is, and the barrel has no idea what action is behind it, just whether or not it's properly square to the chamber.

You are correct about the integrated lug, but, if you have your gunsmith pin you a nice PTG lug onto the front, and you properly bed your stock and lug, you basically have a switch-barrel 700, as well...And it won't cost you maybe $50 more to have it done while he's already got it torn apart and blueprinting it. Then the whole Savage vs. Rem DIY barrel change becomes a bit more gray territory. And a Rem 700 switch-barrel is actually easier than a Savage, because you simply have the smith cut multiple barrels to the same headspace and thread dimensions for your action, and all you need is a barrel vise, and an action wrench, you don't even need to mess with GO/NO-GO gauges.

 

[FEENIX]

So it sounds like if I want to be able to do most of the work myself I should find a Savage action? With a Remington, I'm either going to have to pay to have someone blueprint it or buy a blueprinted action. Is that right?

Yes!

[ame]https://youtu.be/656Z7KUiXJ8?t=4[/ame]

I have a Savage 11 FCNS in .300 WSM that is all factory (except for a muzzle brake install) that I paid $370 out the door new that is hitting targets at 1K yards with my handloads ... not too shabby IMHO.

Or, a full custom action....

I said it initially, but a Surgeon 591 or similar will cost almost the same as fully done Remington, and will have better resale value.

Yep! I went with a Big Horn Arms SR2 LA on my last full custom build.

 

[bassrods]

So it sounds like if I want to be able to do most of the work myself I should find a Savage action? With a Remington, I'm either going to have to pay to have someone blueprint it or buy a blueprinted action. Is that right?

NO You will never have a trued rifle, find a great gun Smith and get it done right the first time.
Get the right barrow action and trigger and stock and getter done right the first time..

I know a great gun Smith if you need one..

 

[FEENIX]

NO You will never have a trued rifle, find a great gun Smith and get it done right the first time.
Get the right barrow action and trigger and stock and getter done right the first time..

I know a great gun Smith if you need one..

Pardon my ignorance but what's a barrow action?

 

[Ragnarnar]

Pardon my ignorance but what's a barrow action?

He forgot a comma. It threw me off initially too.

Barrel, action and trigger

 

[FEENIX]

He forgot a comma. It threw me off initially too.

Barrel, action and trigger

Gotcha, thanks!

 

[Ragnarnar]

How does a fully blueprinted 700 not come close to a custom action? Once blueprinted and squared, the only differences are cosmetic, other than maybe the custom might be slightly beefed-up in a few other places, but with anything smaller than a full-bull 28" tube on it, the 700 isn't going to flex.
I've shot factory, factory blueprinted, and custom...And to cut straight to the point, trued is trued, regardless of brand. The barrel is 75% of the accuracy equation as it is, and the barrel has no idea what action is behind it, just whether or not it's properly square to the chamber.

Simply, ergonomics.
Of the thousands of factory rifle actions I've played with, remington, savage, howa and otherwise, nothing has ever come close to having the same bolt lift, feel and smoothness of a custom action.

Also bang for your buck, as I outlined earlier, a remington will cost you more in the long run if you want it to have all the custom action features.

I also disagree with your assessment regarding the action flex. The action will always flex. The heavier and thicker custom action walls will resist this more, and a one piece integrated pic rail and enclosed action will help maintain its shape. I've shot factory/trued/custom actions before, and in my experience the custom is the most accurate. Is this scientific and definitive ? No, but that's just been my real world experiences. I also suppose it depends on what acceptable is to the shooter.

I agree with you regarding "trueness."

You are correct about the integrated lug, but, if you have your gunsmith pin you a nice PTG lug onto the front, and you properly bed your stock and lug, you basically have a switch-barrel 700, as well...And it won't cost you maybe $50 more to have it done while he's already got it torn apart and blueprinting it. And a Rem 700 switch-barrel is actually easier than a Savage, because you simply have the smith cut multiple barrels to the same headspace and thread dimensions for your action, and all you need is a barrel vise, and an action wrench, you don't even need to mess with GO/NO-GO gauges.

Pinning the lug compromises the strength of the bottom of the action. This only matters if the action goes "Kaboom," but I like knowing any accidents are gonna go out the front, rather than blow the bottom out of the action. Also pins can shear when torquing the barrel on, which turns into another expense and headache.

I'd still want to verify headspace some how. In theory a good torque wrench will be repeatable, but I've seen them drift before, and it would suck to have your gun go click or worse because it got set wrong. Thats why I'd at least have a mark put on the bottom of the action, so I can visually verify it lines up correctly and still don't have to mess with gauges.

My opinion only. Best

 

[Ragnarnar]

Yep! I went with a Big Horn Arms SR2 LA on my last full custom build.

Speaking of, how are you liking it? I've been looking at the TL/SR 3 actions for a 223 AI varmint gun.

 

[FEENIX]

Speaking of, how are you liking it? I've been looking at the TL/SR 3 actions for a 223 AI varmint gun.

Really liking it, very strong and action is silky smooth ... still working on load development though. Cheers!

 

[MudRunner2005]

Simply, ergonomics.
Of the thousands of factory rifle actions I've played with, remington, savage, howa and otherwise, nothing has ever come close to having the same bolt lift, feel and smoothness of a custom action.

Also bang for your buck, as I outlined earlier, a remington will cost you more in the long run if you want it to have all the custom action features.

I also disagree with your assessment regarding the action flex. The action will always flex. The heavier and thicker custom action walls will resist this more, and a one piece integrated pic rail and enclosed action will help maintain its shape. I've shot factory/trued/custom actions before, and in my experience the custom is the most accurate. Is this scientific and definitive ? No, but that's just been my real world experiences. I also suppose it depends on what acceptable is to the shooter.

I agree with you regarding "trueness."

Pinning the lug compromises the strength of the bottom of the action. This only matters if the action goes "Kaboom," but I like knowing any accidents are gonna go out the front, rather than blow the bottom out of the action. Also pins can shear when torquing the barrel on, which turns into another expense and headache.

I'd still want to verify headspace some how. In theory a good torque wrench will be repeatable, but I've seen them drift before, and it would suck to have your gun go click or worse because it got set wrong. Thats why I'd at least have a mark put on the bottom of the action, so I can visually verify it lines up correctly and still don't have to mess with gauges.

My opinion only. Best

Like you, I have also handled thousands of rifles, and will not disagree that the custom will be smoother and more refined, but the blueprinted 700 will be just as functional and accurate. Same goes for just about any properly trued action, provided the barrel is up to the task. Also, the blueprinted Browning A-Bolt II is the closest to a custom action I have found as far as smoothness and bolt-throw.

You are correct about an integral pic rail base increasing lateral strength and flex. But also adding a bolt-on pic rail base will do the same, but won't be quite as strong. But plenty stiff enough for your average person's needs.

If you only pin the bottom, then yes... But if you pin both the sides, and the bottom, then you have a much stronger action.

Yes, torque wrenches and/or witness marks are pretty common practice for switch-barrel rifles. Also, like I said, some people also pin the sides of the lug, instead of the bottom, or they pin the sides and the bottom for even more strength.

 

[Ragnarnar]

If you only pin the bottom, then yes... But if you pin both the sides, and the bottom, then you have a much stronger action.

Yes, torque wrenches and/or witness marks are pretty common practice for switch-barrel rifles. Also, like I said, some people also pin the sides of the lug, instead of the bottom, or they pin the sides and the bottom for even more strength.

Sir,
if I'm understanding you correctly, there's no way that pinning the lug will increase the strength of the action in any way regardless of how many times you pin it.
By removing material for the pins, you're further compromising the area of the action that is already most likely to fail in the event of a catastrophic action failure.

Of the two catastrophic failures I've personally seen, one caused by a squib the other we're not sure of, both actions split forward or the lugs propelling the barrel several feet down range. The lugs and rearward were left mostly intact and the shooters were unharmed save for their underpants. On both actions the failure was remarkably symmetrical around the circumference of the action threads.

It is for this reason that i wouldn't pin a recoil lug at all, instead using the alignment jig available from ptg or brownells if one desires a switch barrel R700 system. If one feels the need to pin the lug, I would pin in the 4 and 8 o'clock positions as this would offer the best balance of shear resistance and avoiding compromising the action.

Again though I would opt for a custom action with one piece lug machined into it. Something like a lone peak arms razor can be had for 1100 dollars or less if you know who to talk to and it drops into a Remington inlet with little work. It features an integrated recoil lug, enclosed action design and it comes true from the factory, with a small firing pin hole, perfect primary extraction, a M16 extractor and ergonomics that will blow away any Remington, savage or otherwise. Plus it will resell for **** near what you paid for it if not the same.

To make a R700 do all this it would cost you far far more than the price of this action.
http://www.lonepeakarms.com/razor/

To make this a switch barrel system all one would have to do is remove the barrel, install the new one and check the headspace. No worries about action flex, catastrophic failures coming back at you or shearing off pins on the recoil lug.

Again, just my opinion. Just sharing what I wish someone had told me when I was starting out.
Best

 

[MudRunner2005]

Sir,
if I'm understanding you correctly, there's no way that pinning the lug will increase the strength of the action in any way regardless of how many times you pin it.
By removing material for the pins, you're further compromising the area of the action that is already most likely to fail in the event of a catastrophic action failure.

Of the two catastrophic failures I've personally seen, one caused by a squib the other we're not sure of, both actions split forward or the lugs propelling the barrel several feet down range. The lugs and rearward were left mostly intact and the shooters were unharmed save for their underpants. On both actions the failure was remarkably symmetrical around the circumference of the action threads.

It is for this reason that i wouldn't pin a recoil lug at all, instead using the alignment jig available from ptg or brownells if one desires a switch barrel R700 system. If one feels the need to pin the lug, I would pin in the 4 and 8 o'clock positions as this would offer the best balance of shear resistance and avoiding compromising the action.

Again though I would opt for a custom action with one piece lug machined into it. Something like a lone peak arms razor can be had for 1100 dollars or less if you know who to talk to and it drops into a Remington inlet with little work. It features an integrated recoil lug, enclosed action design and it comes true from the factory, with a small firing pin hole, perfect primary extraction, a M16 extractor and ergonomics that will blow away any Remington, savage or otherwise. Plus it will resell for **** near what you paid for it if not the same.

To make a R700 do all this it would cost you far far more than the price of this action.
Razor

To make this a switch barrel system all one would have to do is remove the barrel, install the new one and check the headspace. No worries about action flex, catastrophic failures coming back at you or shearing off pins on the recoil lug.

Again, just my opinion. Just sharing what I wish someone had told me when I was starting out.
Best

Actually there is, but that involves me sending you through a crash-course of how structural steel fabrication and steel pin integration works (same principles when dealing with much larger materials). And I don't have time for that.

This entire time I have been talking about pinning the lug in the 4, 6, and 8 o'clock positions. But you have been constantly telling me I was wrong...Everyone knows you don't pin it in the 3 and 9 positions. You have made my entire point for me. Thank you.

Funny you mention the $1100 cost of the custom action being cheaper...I have less than half of that in every blueprinted 700 action I have...And that includes paying the gunsmith.

 

[Ragnarnar]

Sir,
What you have done here is made an argument by authority. This is equivalent to saying, "trust me, I'm a doctor." It doesn't work. If you're unable to explain why your argument is correct, which you haven't other than to say it's right, it's not a very good argument.

There is no way, that drilling a hole in the wall of the receiver, will somehow make it stronger. Even if you stuff a pin in it. Saying so flys in the face of common sense.

In drilling the hole you have ruined the structure of the metal, and the only way to restore it would be to take the receiver and pin to a near molten state, and let it cool, as in welding. If the rifle action fails for whatever reason, that explosion will follow the path of least resistance, which is now the thinned walls where the pins are at the bottom of the receiver.

But what do I know, I'm not a doctor and you might be right. So explain it to me, in plain simple English, how drilling a hole in your gun then gluing a pin to it some how contains the gases of a catastrophic failure better than a solid piece of receiver?

I'm gonna edit to add, if we're talking about shearing pins not explosions, then yeah 2+ is better.

In regards to your trued Remington rifle actions being cheaper, maybe on the face of it, but it won't ever perform at the level of a custom. Let's do some math. In the interest of being fair I'll make your Remington as close to my Razor in features and comsmetics as possible.

Lone peak razor 1100
Pic rail or direct rings 125
All in for 1225

Now your Remington's
Action 400
Truing 200
Enlarge base screws 40
Badger knob 120
Mini 16 extractor 125
Side bolt stop 125
Recoil lug 50
Pinning said recoil lug 50
Pic rail or direct rings. 125
Bolt fluting 60
All in for 1370 so far, remember you'll still need to send it off to Gre'Tan to have him fix the extraction and bush the firing pin for another 200 at least.

So far you're 1570 at least, and it still says Remington on the side and it will resell accordingly. Maybe it performs as well as my custom, if the smith knew what he was doing.
How is that half the price?

This is where I took the prices from for gunsmithing and parts, I'm sure you could find it cheaper somewhere, but not half the price and not nearly as well known as these shops.
Spartan Precision Rifles | Gunsmithing Services
https://www.longriflesinc.com/colle...oducts/gunsmithing-services-m700-bolt-fluting
Gre'-Tan Rifles

Best