One-potato two-potato three-potato four...
Berger VLD vs Berger Match Hunting VLD
- Thread starter SWALI
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One-potato two-potato three-potato four...
The quote from Bryan Litz is correct. But here is my complaint. I shoot a tight neck 6mmBR, fully tricked out Rem 700 with NF on top, in long range competition. I have not been able to get the 105 gr. Target VLD to produce sub MOA. Tried a box of Hunting 105 VLD's, and WOW, they just cut one hole at 100 yds. Shot them in a match, and at 500, they were still under MOA. Bought two more boxes of the same bullet, and could not believe what I saw. Same load, at 100 yds, groups jumped to 3/4". They were jammed .015". I was getting average 2920 MV with the Target bullets, did not chrony the Hunting bullets. Gotta do that.
Since then I have read several comments on accurateshooter.com about the inconsistency of the Berger Hunting bullets. I believe Berger is in the process of correcting this, but you should be aware of this when you are at the range.
Since then I have read several comments on accurateshooter.com about the inconsistency of the Berger Hunting bullets. I believe Berger is in the process of correcting this, but you should be aware of this when you are at the range.
Kevin Thomas
Well-Known Member
Bryan already answered this in the piece that MT Rifleman was good enough to bring forward, but the Berger's now labled as "Hunting" are precisely the same Berger's you've been buying all along. The new, thicker jacket was a move to resolve some issues that are more specific to target shooters shooting longer strings of fire. The solution, as Bryan described, was to make the jackets slightly thicker through the bearing surface area.
Thick jackets are harder to draw concentrically than are thin jackets, and that's just a fact of life. It's also exactly why SMKs jackets are thinner than their GKs, and why J-4 has always gone with a very thin jacket; they're easier to get consistent accuracy. Walt and Eric were very much aware of this when the decision was made to thicken the jackets for those bullets dedicated to Target use. As such, the thicker jackets are held to the same tolerances for concentircity as are the thinner jackets, despite the fact that it's a real pain in the butt to do so. They should be applauded for that, 'cause it's not an easy feat. Bottom line is, if there's any difference in how the Target/Hunting bullets are shooting, it's probably due to something else in the mix, or simply the variation we normally see from one lot of bullets to the next.
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
Thick jackets are harder to draw concentrically than are thin jackets, and that's just a fact of life. It's also exactly why SMKs jackets are thinner than their GKs, and why J-4 has always gone with a very thin jacket; they're easier to get consistent accuracy. Walt and Eric were very much aware of this when the decision was made to thicken the jackets for those bullets dedicated to Target use. As such, the thicker jackets are held to the same tolerances for concentircity as are the thinner jackets, despite the fact that it's a real pain in the butt to do so. They should be applauded for that, 'cause it's not an easy feat. Bottom line is, if there's any difference in how the Target/Hunting bullets are shooting, it's probably due to something else in the mix, or simply the variation we normally see from one lot of bullets to the next.
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
Forrest Ebert
Well-Known Member
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- Apr 22, 2008
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I can tell you that the Hunting VLD works just like they say excellent expansion and dropem where they stand ! That with the 168 7mm couldn't ask for any better performance !
Kevin Thomas
Well-Known Member
Gene,
again, I think we may have wires crossed here; inconsistency in Hunting or Target bullets? The Target bullets are the ones with the thicker jackets, and hence harder to get to deliver consistent accuracy, while the Hunting bullets are the same thickness J-4 jackets they've used all along. If you're seeing issues with the Hunting bullets, since essentially nothing's changed with the bullet itself, something else is most likely going on. Don't know quite what to diagnose over the monitor here, but there's gotta be some difference in there somewhere. Have you voiced the concern to Eric or Walt? They're usually pretty good about getting to the bottom of this sort of thing. Just a thought.
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
again, I think we may have wires crossed here; inconsistency in Hunting or Target bullets? The Target bullets are the ones with the thicker jackets, and hence harder to get to deliver consistent accuracy, while the Hunting bullets are the same thickness J-4 jackets they've used all along. If you're seeing issues with the Hunting bullets, since essentially nothing's changed with the bullet itself, something else is most likely going on. Don't know quite what to diagnose over the monitor here, but there's gotta be some difference in there somewhere. Have you voiced the concern to Eric or Walt? They're usually pretty good about getting to the bottom of this sort of thing. Just a thought.
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
Here's a thread I started a while back asking about member's experiences using the Berger Target VLDs on game. Most were having good experiences regarding expansion on game animals. One member did send me a PM saying he'd seen some failure to expand with the .257 115 gr VLD Berger Target bullets out of his 25-06 when no bone had been hit on deer-sized game animals.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/berger-target-vlds-hunting-experiences-53989/
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/berger-target-vlds-hunting-experiences-53989/
Kevin, please read my posts again - the hunting bullets in the first 100 I bought shot very well; then I bought another 200 of the same hunting bullets, and groups went to pot with same load. These were two different lots, and that is the problem. I repeat, lots of the 105 Berger Hunting VLD's are not consistent. This may be due to Berger's conversion to new equipment. Lesson to be learned is: when you purchase a new lot of a bullet, always check your oal and load repeatedly. BTW, I saw no blow up with the 105 Hunting VLD's.
If the question of which has the thicker jacket has not yet been resolved, Here is from the horses mouth. Istarted to just say "no, the target bullet jacket is thicker" but figured it would be better coming from Michelle Gallagher.
Hi Cody,
Thank you for taking the time to send us your feedback. I will be happy to send you some load data for your 300 Win Mag. If you send me the other bullets you're looking at, I will send that data also. We are working very hard to publish a reloading manual, but it isn't finished yet.
The hunting bullet is the same VLD that we've always produced and sold. The target bullets have a slightly thicker jacket to help prevent them from failing under the extreme conditions that competitive shooters like to put them through. You can shoot competitions with either the hunting or target bullets, but you can only hunt with the hunting bullet. Please let me know if you have any other questions!
Kind Regards,
Michelle Gallagher
Marketing Coordinator
Berger Bullets
Hi Cody,
Thank you for taking the time to send us your feedback. I will be happy to send you some load data for your 300 Win Mag. If you send me the other bullets you're looking at, I will send that data also. We are working very hard to publish a reloading manual, but it isn't finished yet.
The hunting bullet is the same VLD that we've always produced and sold. The target bullets have a slightly thicker jacket to help prevent them from failing under the extreme conditions that competitive shooters like to put them through. You can shoot competitions with either the hunting or target bullets, but you can only hunt with the hunting bullet. Please let me know if you have any other questions!
Kind Regards,
Michelle Gallagher
Marketing Coordinator
Berger Bullets
I have a 27" pac nor barrel 8 twist rem 700 trued action 6mm-270wsm. I am loading the 105 berger vld hunting with 60 grains of rl 25. I was at the range yesterday to sight in at 100 yds. I couldn't even get to target without blow up. I want to use for long range mule deer hunting. Should I use the 105 target with thicker jacket. Chronagraph 3450 fps.
This blows up the a-max too.
Would really appreciate any suggestions from long range hunters.
Thanks,
Jim
This blows up the a-max too.
Would really appreciate any suggestions from long range hunters.
Thanks,
Jim
That's what I'd try. But only purchase one box to see if they're tough enough to survive, with accuracy, down to your targets.
I was shooting the 115 gr .257 Berger Hunting VLD up to 3900 fps and most of them were reaching my targets at 100 and 300 yds. About 2 out of 20 inexplicably didn't impact. Pretty sure they got smoked due to launch velocity. Accuracy was even still pretty decent - not counting the ones that didn't hit the target. One difference is you've got an 8-twist barrel and mine is a 10-twist. That probably explains why you're having the greater rate of failed hits on target.
So I went ahead and purchased some of the 115 gr 25 cal Berger Target VLDs but I have not yet fired any. Since most of my Hunting VLD reached my targets, I'm thinking the Target VLD may be just enough to launch at 3750 fps, which is about where I'd like to load them to. Berger literature states the Target VLD are produced with the thicker jackets for this very purpose ->> to survive higher launch velocity.
I was shooting the 115 gr .257 Berger Hunting VLD up to 3900 fps and most of them were reaching my targets at 100 and 300 yds. About 2 out of 20 inexplicably didn't impact. Pretty sure they got smoked due to launch velocity. Accuracy was even still pretty decent - not counting the ones that didn't hit the target. One difference is you've got an 8-twist barrel and mine is a 10-twist. That probably explains why you're having the greater rate of failed hits on target.
So I went ahead and purchased some of the 115 gr 25 cal Berger Target VLDs but I have not yet fired any. Since most of my Hunting VLD reached my targets, I'm thinking the Target VLD may be just enough to launch at 3750 fps, which is about where I'd like to load them to. Berger literature states the Target VLD are produced with the thicker jackets for this very purpose ->> to survive higher launch velocity.
royinidaho
Well-Known Member
My experience is limited to 27 cal. VLDs hunting or match won't stand up to much over 3100 FPS MV in an 8 twist 3 groove barrel.
Much above 3300 and hey disintegrate.
In the 270 Win VLDs are superb. In the 270 AM they don't stand up at AM velocities (3700 FPS)
Much above 3300 and hey disintegrate.
In the 270 Win VLDs are superb. In the 270 AM they don't stand up at AM velocities (3700 FPS)
I am familar with both the hunting and target 7mm 180 VLDs in a 30" 7 Rem Mag barrel. Through some poor advisement I ended up with a 1 in 7 twist 3 groove barrel. At first it shot the hunting version fantastically. While on a coues wt hunt the rifle was used by a friend who got his deer on the opening day. I waited several days later to shoot at my deer. It was a chip shot at 400 yds. Murphy's law raised his ugly head and the bullet went off course wounding the deer. Several shots later with all being misses, I grabbed the rifle I loaned my friend, a 257 Weatherby with 115 hunting VLDs and finished off the poor deer.
I did some testing at the range when I got back and proved it was the bullet having issues. Round count was around 225 through the barrel.
I got some target versions and once again all was well, FOR A WHILE. At round count 300 or so these bullets began to show signs of damage with erratic flight and clean misses at 500 m. I then moly coated the bullets which worked for a very short time.
I now shoot accubonds or monos like the E-tip with no issues. The 140 accubond holds up well to abuse. It is going 3400 fps and the RPMs are an unbelieveable 349,714
Unfortunately my shooting friend, Dan, made a 7 STW with the same twist barrel. He began to damage bullets at round count 180 or so.
I was warned by several here that this would happen and they were right. Lesson learned...go with minimal twist with these VLDs. Using a 6 groove should help too.
I did some testing at the range when I got back and proved it was the bullet having issues. Round count was around 225 through the barrel.
I got some target versions and once again all was well, FOR A WHILE. At round count 300 or so these bullets began to show signs of damage with erratic flight and clean misses at 500 m. I then moly coated the bullets which worked for a very short time.
I now shoot accubonds or monos like the E-tip with no issues. The 140 accubond holds up well to abuse. It is going 3400 fps and the RPMs are an unbelieveable 349,714
Unfortunately my shooting friend, Dan, made a 7 STW with the same twist barrel. He began to damage bullets at round count 180 or so.
I was warned by several here that this would happen and they were right. Lesson learned...go with minimal twist with these VLDs. Using a 6 groove should help too.
Why don't they like J-3 jackets ?
