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Barrel Makers that do full gunsmithing?
- Thread starter frostop
- Start date
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257ackleyhunter
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2014
- Messages
- 65
matchgrade machine is another as well they do alot of encore stuff but i think theyll do bolt action barrels as well
Hired Gun
Well-Known Member
If you are okay with mass production methods this is a viable alternative to a smith that specializes in a super precision barrel fitment.
I believe it's a huge conflict of interest letting any part manufacturer install their own parts and here is just one example why. I had very popular button rifled barrel company send me 3 different blanks one after another that were supposed to be their best grade and not one of them could come anywhere close to passing my preinspection due to being .003" wider at 3 and 9 compared to what they were at 12 and 6. Then the crown ends were a couple thou looser that they were in the middle. It must have been their button or how they were lapped but they just could not make a round .224" barrel. I even sent videos of the inspection and they said they could not duplicate my results. They were perfect according to them. After I rejected the third barrel they insisted I send them the rifle and let them install it informing me that they put them on in that condition every day and never had a complaint. I had to pay the freight back to them each time and the customer was out a restocking fee on his refund.
Another time I toured a different barrel makers shop and while showing me the barrel fitment set up they were so proud of their new cnc machine that had most every tennon programed in so they could use anyone to fit barrels. It was programed to duplicate the factory tennon which has tons of slop in the thread fitment. I asked if they hired gunsmiths or at least experienced machinists for this position and they said they would not ever hire anyone for that position with prior experience. They wanted a guy with no bad habits to correct. They trained in house. It was the first step over a broom and he was expected to fit 3 to 5 barrels an hour for the $1 over minimum wage they paid him. While we watched he fit 3 barrels in no time at all. It was a real eye opener. They did dial the barrels in but it was off a pin gauge stuck in the end they were working on. The other end was not supported. No through the barrel flush lubrication. Just water based coolant sprayed at the reamer and it made lots of peck cuts. I asked if I could take pictures and that was out of the question. They were very nice and openly answered every question we had. We were there 3 hours and got to watch each step fully completed except for stress relieving and lapping. We saw it all done just not the full cycle due to the long time those steps took. They certainly were not afraid of throwing away culls. I watched them toss lots of barrels during our tour.
We have used lots of their barrels and they all shot excellent. I still think they are the best button rifled barrels out there. I still have a couple of them on my own rifles but I fit them. That was just one shop so I have no idea how other barrel makers do it but I suspect a preprogramed cnc is a common feature. For a custom rifle I'm used to micrometer spindle type thread fits compared to the nut on a pipe wrench (attempt at humor) I was seeing. They are not that loose but they fit about the same as a factory fit barrel. The action truing consisted of simply sticking them in a 3 jaw with no dial in of any kind and faced off. The whole barrel fitment was nothing like what I would expect for what they charged.
I believe it's a huge conflict of interest letting any part manufacturer install their own parts and here is just one example why. I had very popular button rifled barrel company send me 3 different blanks one after another that were supposed to be their best grade and not one of them could come anywhere close to passing my preinspection due to being .003" wider at 3 and 9 compared to what they were at 12 and 6. Then the crown ends were a couple thou looser that they were in the middle. It must have been their button or how they were lapped but they just could not make a round .224" barrel. I even sent videos of the inspection and they said they could not duplicate my results. They were perfect according to them. After I rejected the third barrel they insisted I send them the rifle and let them install it informing me that they put them on in that condition every day and never had a complaint. I had to pay the freight back to them each time and the customer was out a restocking fee on his refund.
Another time I toured a different barrel makers shop and while showing me the barrel fitment set up they were so proud of their new cnc machine that had most every tennon programed in so they could use anyone to fit barrels. It was programed to duplicate the factory tennon which has tons of slop in the thread fitment. I asked if they hired gunsmiths or at least experienced machinists for this position and they said they would not ever hire anyone for that position with prior experience. They wanted a guy with no bad habits to correct. They trained in house. It was the first step over a broom and he was expected to fit 3 to 5 barrels an hour for the $1 over minimum wage they paid him. While we watched he fit 3 barrels in no time at all. It was a real eye opener. They did dial the barrels in but it was off a pin gauge stuck in the end they were working on. The other end was not supported. No through the barrel flush lubrication. Just water based coolant sprayed at the reamer and it made lots of peck cuts. I asked if I could take pictures and that was out of the question. They were very nice and openly answered every question we had. We were there 3 hours and got to watch each step fully completed except for stress relieving and lapping. We saw it all done just not the full cycle due to the long time those steps took. They certainly were not afraid of throwing away culls. I watched them toss lots of barrels during our tour.
We have used lots of their barrels and they all shot excellent. I still think they are the best button rifled barrels out there. I still have a couple of them on my own rifles but I fit them. That was just one shop so I have no idea how other barrel makers do it but I suspect a preprogramed cnc is a common feature. For a custom rifle I'm used to micrometer spindle type thread fits compared to the nut on a pipe wrench (attempt at humor) I was seeing. They are not that loose but they fit about the same as a factory fit barrel. The action truing consisted of simply sticking them in a 3 jaw with no dial in of any kind and faced off. The whole barrel fitment was nothing like what I would expect for what they charged.
Hired Gun
Well-Known Member
There will always be a demand for this level of quality. There is nothing wrong with their technique. It's just not to the tolerances I would expect for the same money spent elsewhere. The business end of a barrel threads and chamber are all hidden once it's put together. Even if you took it apart the threads and chamber look nice. Never said they wouldn't still shoot well. The barrels they build are excellent so they should still shoot way better than whatever you took off.
A factory fit job rarely possess these extra qualities:
Tennon threads on same plane as the bore path. When mounting a scope that is optically centered the windage sights in with zero to 2 clicks max. This is not a requirement but a mark of quality.
When threading the barrel to the action it turns in smooth and slop free right to the action. Once 2 threads are engaged the barrel has no more slop than one threaded most of the way on. A lot like a micrometer dial. This is not a requirement but a mark of quality.
A chamber square chamber to bore path defines as when viewed through a bore scope or from a casting every land is exactly the same distance to the neck of the brass. This means the bullet engages every land at exactly the same time. Production barrels range from 1/16" to 1/2" variance when measured this way. Even barrels with chambers oversized or crooked can still shoot 1/2 MOA and better. I just prefer the chamber is min spec and aligned to the bore path.
A no detectable burr throat that needs no more than a one shot break in. This is not a requirement but a mark of quality.
Precise sharp edged crown that is square to the bore rather than centered on the exit. This is not a requirement but a mark of quality.
None of this is needed or important in a hunting rifle but it's what you can expect from a specialist.
Here is your choice. A $14,000 Honda CBR1000RR or $120,000 MV Agusta F4CC. They both do about the same thing. I think the Agusta makes me feel special. In this case they both cost the same.
A factory fit job rarely possess these extra qualities:
Tennon threads on same plane as the bore path. When mounting a scope that is optically centered the windage sights in with zero to 2 clicks max. This is not a requirement but a mark of quality.
When threading the barrel to the action it turns in smooth and slop free right to the action. Once 2 threads are engaged the barrel has no more slop than one threaded most of the way on. A lot like a micrometer dial. This is not a requirement but a mark of quality.
A chamber square chamber to bore path defines as when viewed through a bore scope or from a casting every land is exactly the same distance to the neck of the brass. This means the bullet engages every land at exactly the same time. Production barrels range from 1/16" to 1/2" variance when measured this way. Even barrels with chambers oversized or crooked can still shoot 1/2 MOA and better. I just prefer the chamber is min spec and aligned to the bore path.
A no detectable burr throat that needs no more than a one shot break in. This is not a requirement but a mark of quality.
Precise sharp edged crown that is square to the bore rather than centered on the exit. This is not a requirement but a mark of quality.
None of this is needed or important in a hunting rifle but it's what you can expect from a specialist.
Here is your choice. A $14,000 Honda CBR1000RR or $120,000 MV Agusta F4CC. They both do about the same thing. I think the Agusta makes me feel special. In this case they both cost the same.
YOSEPPY
Well-Known Member
How much do you charge to chamber a blank and true a action?? I've been thinking about sending my .264 off to get a new tube
