Double Naught Spy
Well-Known Member
There has been an injunction award and the Kaput poison is on hold at this time....
Bad idea?
- Thread starter snox801
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RockyMtnMT
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snox801
Well-Known Member
I agree with the problem being a problem and has to be taken care of not sure poison was the answer. Texas seems like the only state that has to much large chunks of land to control pigs. Other states have them but are somewhat controlled. Like Michigan everyone a hog is seen people flock to that area and wipe them out. We have small chunks of land here so it's always hard for the pigs to find a sanctuary. I've said it a lot and get some heat for it on this site but if the prices would drop on the hunting of pigs that would help. The fact that a lot of places get $1 a pound really turns me and many hunter I know off. Think about the bill Zen would have just on his last hunt.
I have personally had farmers complain about hogs I offered to hunt the land and was told no. They gave a great response to. If they let some Joe blow out and he shoots a cow of property such as water tank they loose money. I know those types of hunters so I wouldn't want them on my land either. So I mention that I at the time carried a insurance policy that cover one million for damages I caused while hunting. I was also told no by that farmer. So he had no risk of loosing money other than to the pigs. I believe it wasn't me that was the problem because I'm always respectful and have never been not invited back to a place to hunt.
Just a perspective for my view. Not all farmers are like that as I'm heading down in two weeks to meet a few ranch owners and try to work out a spot to come hunt pigs a few times a year. Wish me luck.
I have personally had farmers complain about hogs I offered to hunt the land and was told no. They gave a great response to. If they let some Joe blow out and he shoots a cow of property such as water tank they loose money. I know those types of hunters so I wouldn't want them on my land either. So I mention that I at the time carried a insurance policy that cover one million for damages I caused while hunting. I was also told no by that farmer. So he had no risk of loosing money other than to the pigs. I believe it wasn't me that was the problem because I'm always respectful and have never been not invited back to a place to hunt.
Just a perspective for my view. Not all farmers are like that as I'm heading down in two weeks to meet a few ranch owners and try to work out a spot to come hunt pigs a few times a year. Wish me luck.
geo4061
Well-Known Member
Have any of you ever watched an animal die by poisoning? My daughters cat got into the neighbors shop and ate rat poison. For four days we watched her stumble, shake, and convulse. Then we had to put her down. Poisoning I hate it. There has got to be a different answer. Especially since you are going to kill every animal, bird, and maybe even fish in the area.
Double Naught Spy
Well-Known Member
George, it depends on the poison. Warfarin is a pretty terrible way to die, no doubt about it. Sodium nitrite doesn't allow for the blood to take up oxygen and the animal simply becomes exhausted, goes to sleep, and doesn't wake up. On top of that, the animal is safe to eat.
Well, we don't have wolves and it is just a matter of time before Montana has a problem with hogs. It isn't like they can't live there. So far every state invaded has failed to stop them.
Well, we don't have wolves and it is just a matter of time before Montana has a problem with hogs. It isn't like they can't live there. So far every state invaded has failed to stop them.
geo4061
Well-Known Member
Oh, how easy, peaceful, and humane you make it sound. " Simply becomes exhausted, goes to sleep, and doesn't wake up." I refuse to drink the Kool Aid. This is simply not true. I watched millions of fish die due to "Golden Algae." It"s an algae that attaches to their gills and slowly cuts of their oxygen supply. A lack of oxygen is another slow and terrible death. Plus once again how do you not kill anything that eats it? I was watching a predator show where they had five helicopters. Eradication no,but a great control method.
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
If they show up in MT I am not sure that we will have enough people with backbone to do what is necessary. Our current Gov would not. I think we have enough MT citizens that would understand the need to eradicate them. The problem would be the non MT citizens that would interfere and perpetuate the problem based on some sense of humanity. Meanwhile the actual citizens suffer the cost.
This is why I say TX is screwed. I'm pretty sure Texans are not making the decision. Certainly not the Texans that are effected by the destructive, invasive, feral animal. The city dwellers always seem to care more for the well being of the animal than the people that are effected. Fat happy people that do not have to worry about whether or not there is a food supply make poor decisions.
Steve
Double Naught Spy
Well-Known Member
geo4061, all I can suggest for you is to brush up on your biology and also to maybe reassess whether or not the helihunters spent time actually verifying that each downed hog was dead (we have all seen the shows...they don't) or if they just fly off and leave any downed hog behind, dead or alive.
geo4061
Well-Known Member
I know you got your info from a college kid sitting in his Parks and Wildlife office with no real world experience. These biologists told us every false hood you can imagine when millions of fish were dying. There was no just going to sleep. They died one small piece at a time. The circulation to their flesh slowed. Killing large pieces of meat. The dying flesh would just hang off of them. This took weeks and then they gasped for air on the surface before they died days later. I sure would not eat one after poisoning and I bet they wouldn't either. I do not have a biology degree but I can tell you what I have seen,not read or heard.
snox801
Well-Known Member
I actual have a personal friend who is the leading fish biologists for usda. Out of curiosity I'm gonna have to ask him about this.ive never heard of it and would like to know more. Not sure if he had anything to do with it as he mainly works on catfish and the farming of hem for food.
geo4061
Well-Known Member
Google it. Nearly every lake in Texas from DFW west was wiped out. Possum Kingdom Lake is where I watched it slowly move through the entire lake. It is always in the water but only kills when it blooms. It starts usually in January on the upper end of a lake. Sometimes it moves trough out the whole lake some years not as far. Texoma, where I am now has had it but it only moved half way through the lake. You will not here the whole truth on this matter. First because they do not know that much about it. The other reason is that businesses on these reservoirs raised so much cane. They did not want people to quit coming. Parks and Wildlife continues to stock these lakes every year. Fishing has gotten better because the algae does not move through out the entire lake every year. However, it is nothing like it had been.
Wedgy
Well-Known Member
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- Feb 9, 2013
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Inadvertant but it happens;
Federal cyanide trap injures eastern Idaho boy, kills dog | Fox News
Idaho
Federal cyanide trap injures eastern Idaho boy, kills dog
Published March 17, 2017
· Associated Press
This Thursday, March 16, 2017 photo released by the Bannock County Sheriff's Office shows a cyanide device in Pocatello, Idaho, The cyanide device, called M-44, is spring-activated and shoots poison that is meant to kill predators. The U.S. Department of Agriculture released a statement Friday, March 17, 2017, confirming that workers placed the device that activated Thursday which resulted in the death of a 3-year-old Lab named Casey. Bannock County Sheriff Lorin Nielsen says a 14-year-old boy was taken to a hospital to be tested for cyanide poisoning but was not seriously injured and was released. (Bannock County Sheriff's Office via AP)
This Thursday, March 16, 2017 photo released by the Bannock County Sheriff's Office shows a cyanide device in Pocatello, Idaho, The cyanide device, called M-44, is spring-activated and shoots poison that is meant to kill predators. The U.S. Department of Agriculture released a statement Friday, March 17, 2017, confirming that workers placed the device that activated Thursday which resulted in the death of a 3-year-old Lab named Casey. Bannock County Sheriff Lorin Nielsen says a 14-year-old boy was taken to a hospital to be tested for cyanide poisoning but was not seriously injured and was released. (Bannock County Sheriff's Office via AP) (The Associated Press)
POCATELLO, Idaho – An eastern Idaho sheriff says he's investigating after a cyanide trap placed by federal authorities to kill coyotes injured a 14-year-old boy and killed his dog.
Bannock County Sheriff Lorin Nielsen tells the Idaho State Journal (Pocatello boy watches family dog die after 'cyanide bomb' explodes | Local | idahostatejournal.com) that the device activated Thursday near Pocatello.
Nielsen says the boy was taken to a hospital to be tested for cyanide poisoning but was not seriously injured and was released. The dog, a 3-year-old Lab named Casey, died.
Nielsen says the device was placed in the area by the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
It's a spring-activated device that is typically smeared with bait and shoots poison into an animal's mouth when it tugs on the trap.
Federal authorities declined to comment when contacted Friday by The Associated Press.
Federal cyanide trap injures eastern Idaho boy, kills dog | Fox News
Idaho
Federal cyanide trap injures eastern Idaho boy, kills dog
Published March 17, 2017
· Associated Press
This Thursday, March 16, 2017 photo released by the Bannock County Sheriff's Office shows a cyanide device in Pocatello, Idaho, The cyanide device, called M-44, is spring-activated and shoots poison that is meant to kill predators. The U.S. Department of Agriculture released a statement Friday, March 17, 2017, confirming that workers placed the device that activated Thursday which resulted in the death of a 3-year-old Lab named Casey. Bannock County Sheriff Lorin Nielsen says a 14-year-old boy was taken to a hospital to be tested for cyanide poisoning but was not seriously injured and was released. (Bannock County Sheriff's Office via AP)
This Thursday, March 16, 2017 photo released by the Bannock County Sheriff's Office shows a cyanide device in Pocatello, Idaho, The cyanide device, called M-44, is spring-activated and shoots poison that is meant to kill predators. The U.S. Department of Agriculture released a statement Friday, March 17, 2017, confirming that workers placed the device that activated Thursday which resulted in the death of a 3-year-old Lab named Casey. Bannock County Sheriff Lorin Nielsen says a 14-year-old boy was taken to a hospital to be tested for cyanide poisoning but was not seriously injured and was released. (Bannock County Sheriff's Office via AP) (The Associated Press)
POCATELLO, Idaho – An eastern Idaho sheriff says he's investigating after a cyanide trap placed by federal authorities to kill coyotes injured a 14-year-old boy and killed his dog.
Bannock County Sheriff Lorin Nielsen tells the Idaho State Journal (Pocatello boy watches family dog die after 'cyanide bomb' explodes | Local | idahostatejournal.com) that the device activated Thursday near Pocatello.
Nielsen says the boy was taken to a hospital to be tested for cyanide poisoning but was not seriously injured and was released. The dog, a 3-year-old Lab named Casey, died.
Nielsen says the device was placed in the area by the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
It's a spring-activated device that is typically smeared with bait and shoots poison into an animal's mouth when it tugs on the trap.
Federal authorities declined to comment when contacted Friday by The Associated Press.
Attachments
snox801
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a great way to eat rid of a pest. Gov can't do anything right why would anyone think they could do this correctly?
Wedgy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2013
- Messages
- 3,217
Years ago Northern pike got into one our CA lakes and the government "handled" the problem.... a colossal cluster to say the least. Unless it has been done successfully somewhere else I wouldn't want to be part of the experiment.
http://www.hcn.org/issues/131/4189
"How California poisoned a small town"
Jane Braxton Little May 25, 1998 From the print edition
PORTOLA, Calif. - The northern pike, a voracious species, has claimed what may be its biggest victim yet: this small town.
Officials of the Plumas County town of 2,200 residents say they have lost their backup water supply, half their tourism business and their reputation for a pristine mountain environment - all to the predatory pike.
But it is the California Department of Fish and Game they blame, not the fish. On Oct. 15, the department dumped chemicals into Lake Davis to rid it of the non-native species. Officials feared the pike proliferating in Lake Davis would migrate downstream through the Feather River into the Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta. There they could devastate native trout and salmon along with California's multimillion-dollar commercial sportfishing industry.
"The aquatic resources of California were at risk," says Banky E. Curtis, a regional Fish and Game Department manager.
But the lake eight miles north of Portola is a major source of the town's drinking water as well as the centerpiece of its recreation economy. In the seven months since the poisoning, Portola has battled the state over municipal water shortages, public health problems and $400,000 it spent as a result of the pike project.
Just when they thought it couldn't get any worse, an angler caught a northern pike 60 miles below Lake Davis in the Middle Fork of the Feather River near Lake Oroville. The April catch, confirmed as a pike by state officials, adds insult to the injury caused to Portola by the $2 million project, says Plumas County Supervisor Fran Roudebush.
"Everything the Fish and Game Department did at Lake Davis and to this community was for nothing," Roudebush says.
Fish and Game officials have found no other pike in Lake Oroville, and until they find live fish they refuse to confirm the catch as evidence that pike have migrated downstream, says department spokesman Patrick Foy.
When northern pike first surfaced in Lake Davis in 1994, Plumas County residents were as angry as state officials. The Midwestern native, prized as a feisty sportfish, was apparently planted illegally in the Plumas County lake. The county has offered a $5,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of the culprit.
Nevertheless, the poisoning was vehemently opposed by most of the rural county's population (HCN, 11/10/97). County officials tried and failed to stop it with a lawsuit. Portola councilman Bill Powers and three other residents tried to stop the poisoning through civil disobedience, chaining themselves to a lake buoy in the water.
But state workers persisted, dumping 64,000 pounds of powdered rotenone and 16,000 gallons of a fish-killing chemical into Lake Davis. All aquatic life in Lake Davis, including the pike, died.
Now the chemicals have seeped out of the lake and flowed five miles down Grizzly Creek toward the Feather River, leaving hundreds of dead fish in their wake.
The poisons also escaped into the air when operators held chemical hose nozzles above the surface of the water instead of below it. More than 80 people filed health complaints that included nausea and upper respiratory and skin irritations. The Department of Fish and Game was fined $250,000 for the creek poisoning and cited by a local air-quality district for violating public nuisance laws.
Moreover, Lake Davis still contains chemicals, despite assurances that it would be free of all toxins within eight weeks of the poisoning. State health officials will not allow the lake to be used for drinking water or permit fish to be restocked until the lake is free of all chemicals.
The Fish and Game Department has not paid for a backup water supply, despite its written commitment to cover those costs. That leaves Portola holding a $172,000 bill Portola City Administrator Jim Murphy calls "the equivalent of a father's failure to make court-ordered child support payments."
The nearly $400,000 in city costs related to the Lake Davis project represents 21 percent of Portola's annual budget, Murphy adds.
The repercussions widen
Despite promises of state assistance, local businesses that would normally be enjoying the start of a busy tourist season are reporting declines up to 50 percent because of uncertainty and fear about the lake. Two business owners say they will not open at all this summer - one of them, never.
"We're bitter. We're furious," says Christopher D. Stanton, a Portola physician. "Our drinking water was poisoned at gunpoint."
Portola has filed a $2 million claim against the state of California over the poisoning of the city's drinking water supply.
And on May 5, Plumas County District Attorney James Reichle filed misdemeanor criminal charges against the Fish and Game Department, Banky Curtis and two other agency employees. The charges include violations of state water laws in poisoning Lake Davis and allowing contaminants to seep into Grizzly Creek. The criminal case reflects a community still seething with anger.
"The level of arrogance that was exhibited by these people in handling this project was criminal," Reichle says.
Foy, the department spokesman, called the criminal charges a continuation of "the baseless legal challenges, personal attacks and inflammatory remarks" that have occurred over the history of the project. The department has gone to "extraordinary lengths' to address the economic impacts and water supply issues associated with the project, he says. As proof, Foy cited the over 1 million rainbow trout the department has planted this spring in streams near Lake Davis and its one-time action to open fishing season three weeks earlier than the rest of the state.
"The criminals here are the individuals that planted northern pike in Lake Davis, not the department or the employees," Foy says.
Murphy says the hostilities that have developed since the poisoning project could have been avoided by prompt answers to questions and action in place of promises.
"The state burned us," he says. "They show all the symptoms of a guilty party attempting to create a smokescreen to cover the actions ... Their unwillingness to assume responsibility for their mistakes led to this government boondoggle."
http://www.hcn.org/issues/131/4189
"How California poisoned a small town"
Jane Braxton Little May 25, 1998 From the print edition
PORTOLA, Calif. - The northern pike, a voracious species, has claimed what may be its biggest victim yet: this small town.
Officials of the Plumas County town of 2,200 residents say they have lost their backup water supply, half their tourism business and their reputation for a pristine mountain environment - all to the predatory pike.
But it is the California Department of Fish and Game they blame, not the fish. On Oct. 15, the department dumped chemicals into Lake Davis to rid it of the non-native species. Officials feared the pike proliferating in Lake Davis would migrate downstream through the Feather River into the Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta. There they could devastate native trout and salmon along with California's multimillion-dollar commercial sportfishing industry.
"The aquatic resources of California were at risk," says Banky E. Curtis, a regional Fish and Game Department manager.
But the lake eight miles north of Portola is a major source of the town's drinking water as well as the centerpiece of its recreation economy. In the seven months since the poisoning, Portola has battled the state over municipal water shortages, public health problems and $400,000 it spent as a result of the pike project.
Just when they thought it couldn't get any worse, an angler caught a northern pike 60 miles below Lake Davis in the Middle Fork of the Feather River near Lake Oroville. The April catch, confirmed as a pike by state officials, adds insult to the injury caused to Portola by the $2 million project, says Plumas County Supervisor Fran Roudebush.
"Everything the Fish and Game Department did at Lake Davis and to this community was for nothing," Roudebush says.
Fish and Game officials have found no other pike in Lake Oroville, and until they find live fish they refuse to confirm the catch as evidence that pike have migrated downstream, says department spokesman Patrick Foy.
When northern pike first surfaced in Lake Davis in 1994, Plumas County residents were as angry as state officials. The Midwestern native, prized as a feisty sportfish, was apparently planted illegally in the Plumas County lake. The county has offered a $5,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of the culprit.
Nevertheless, the poisoning was vehemently opposed by most of the rural county's population (HCN, 11/10/97). County officials tried and failed to stop it with a lawsuit. Portola councilman Bill Powers and three other residents tried to stop the poisoning through civil disobedience, chaining themselves to a lake buoy in the water.
But state workers persisted, dumping 64,000 pounds of powdered rotenone and 16,000 gallons of a fish-killing chemical into Lake Davis. All aquatic life in Lake Davis, including the pike, died.
Now the chemicals have seeped out of the lake and flowed five miles down Grizzly Creek toward the Feather River, leaving hundreds of dead fish in their wake.
The poisons also escaped into the air when operators held chemical hose nozzles above the surface of the water instead of below it. More than 80 people filed health complaints that included nausea and upper respiratory and skin irritations. The Department of Fish and Game was fined $250,000 for the creek poisoning and cited by a local air-quality district for violating public nuisance laws.
Moreover, Lake Davis still contains chemicals, despite assurances that it would be free of all toxins within eight weeks of the poisoning. State health officials will not allow the lake to be used for drinking water or permit fish to be restocked until the lake is free of all chemicals.
The Fish and Game Department has not paid for a backup water supply, despite its written commitment to cover those costs. That leaves Portola holding a $172,000 bill Portola City Administrator Jim Murphy calls "the equivalent of a father's failure to make court-ordered child support payments."
The nearly $400,000 in city costs related to the Lake Davis project represents 21 percent of Portola's annual budget, Murphy adds.
The repercussions widen
Despite promises of state assistance, local businesses that would normally be enjoying the start of a busy tourist season are reporting declines up to 50 percent because of uncertainty and fear about the lake. Two business owners say they will not open at all this summer - one of them, never.
"We're bitter. We're furious," says Christopher D. Stanton, a Portola physician. "Our drinking water was poisoned at gunpoint."
Portola has filed a $2 million claim against the state of California over the poisoning of the city's drinking water supply.
And on May 5, Plumas County District Attorney James Reichle filed misdemeanor criminal charges against the Fish and Game Department, Banky Curtis and two other agency employees. The charges include violations of state water laws in poisoning Lake Davis and allowing contaminants to seep into Grizzly Creek. The criminal case reflects a community still seething with anger.
"The level of arrogance that was exhibited by these people in handling this project was criminal," Reichle says.
Foy, the department spokesman, called the criminal charges a continuation of "the baseless legal challenges, personal attacks and inflammatory remarks" that have occurred over the history of the project. The department has gone to "extraordinary lengths' to address the economic impacts and water supply issues associated with the project, he says. As proof, Foy cited the over 1 million rainbow trout the department has planted this spring in streams near Lake Davis and its one-time action to open fishing season three weeks earlier than the rest of the state.
"The criminals here are the individuals that planted northern pike in Lake Davis, not the department or the employees," Foy says.
Murphy says the hostilities that have developed since the poisoning project could have been avoided by prompt answers to questions and action in place of promises.
"The state burned us," he says. "They show all the symptoms of a guilty party attempting to create a smokescreen to cover the actions ... Their unwillingness to assume responsibility for their mistakes led to this government boondoggle."
