At what point are you done with load development?

[Stokesrjsr]

First I am not using VLD's because they should never be used to hunt unless you are some terrible human being that looks at animals as beasts that have no dignity or sanctity. Why because the second someone tells you they do not consistently retain their mass and have issues with penetration and retaining the jacket and you continue to use them anyways you are an evil person.

I think you kind of have it backwards here. Using a VLD at long range will produce a quicker more ethical kill than a heavily constructed hunting bullet that is designed to perform at higher velocities but instead zips through the animal without expanding.

I know this from personal experience with a 165 grain Nosler partition fired from my 30-06 on a Desert Bighorn Ram at 567 yards. The bullet hit the center of the lungs failed to expand and exited with a pencil sized wound. It killed the ram, but to my shame he died a slow death. This was in 1986 and at that time Nosler did not publish a minimum velocity which is now established at 1,800 fps. Since then I've made and witnessed several similar shots with Berger VLDs, Hornady A-Max, or now ELD Match bullets with very quick kills and baseball to softball diameter exits. The ethical hunter chooses a bullet that will perform well at the velocity the bullet will impact the animal.
It is not ethical to use a heavily constructed bullet designed for 0-300 yard impacts at long range.

The reason for putting time and effort into long range load development is to insure that properly constructed bullet can be placed precisely so that it can do the job humanely.

 

[memtb]

"If" all of the shots taken are at extended ranges, then a choice of bullets offering a very high BC, with thin jacket, desiged for explosive expansion at reduced velocities, with only "broadside shots", offers a good, valid selection. But, to change the scenario.....if presented with the trophy of a lifetime, which is dearly wanted, offered a shot at much closer range (under 100 yards), failing light, entering timber only offering a severely quartering away shot, or "Texas Heart Shot", head down (not offering a back of head shot), will you pass?
This is similar to, a "test of character" shot, that hunters should pass on, if shots are beyond their shooting capabilities.

All hunters will eventually face the decision of " ethics over desire"! We each know, or should know "our self imposed question of ethics", and thereby, choose a bullet/caliber/velocity, that will work at all ranges, and all shot angles, within our self-imposed limits of "ethical" hunting! If the hunter has "no" ethics, my post is of little value! memtb

 

[Stokesrjsr]

"If" all of the shots taken are at extended ranges, then a choice of bullets offering a very high BC, with thin jacket, desiged for explosive expansion at reduced velocities, with only "broadside shots", offers a good, valid selection. But, to change the scenario.....if presented with the trophy of a lifetime, which is dearly wanted, offered a shot at much closer range (under 100 yards), failing light, entering timber only offering a severely quartering away shot, or "Texas Heart Shot", head down (not offering a back of head shot), will you pass?
This is similar to, a "test of character" shot, that hunters should pass on, if shots are beyond their shooting capabilities.

All hunters will eventually face the decision of " ethics over desire"! We each know, or should know "our self imposed question of ethics", and thereby, choose a bullet/caliber/velocity, that will work at all ranges, and all shot angles, within our self-imposed limits of "ethical" hunting! If the hunter has "no" ethics, my post is of little value! memtb

But there is no bullet that will work at all ranges and all shot angles on all game. The bullet that works up close may be a miserable failure at long range and vice versatility. I would suggest that it is better to know the limitations of your chosen bullet and your skills and stay within those.
I've done extensive testing of most popular 30 caliber bullets and can make any of them fail by using them outside their velocity envelope.

 

[memtb]

Stokesrjrs, Exacty.....this was the premise for my post. Just from my perspective, I'd rather limit my shots to say, 600 yards, but have a bullet capable for the "up close and personal" shot. Unless the shot distance is an absolute....just another of life's compromises! I now that my selection of bullet/caliber/velocity is capable (maybe niot ideal) to 800....my limitations are 600, with optimum conditions. I would however, prefer a 50 yard shot! memtb

 

[Stokesrjsr]

Stokesrjrs, Exacty.....this was the premise for my post. Just from my perspective, I'd rather limit my shots to say, 600 yards, but have a bullet capable for the "up close and personal" shot. Unless the shot distance is an absolute....just another of life's compromises! I now that my selection of bullet/caliber/velocity is capable (maybe niot ideal) to 800....my limitations are 600, with optimum conditions. I would however, prefer a 50 yard shot! memtb

Agreed

 

[Rich Coyle]

I'm totally with Elkeater! You aren't pulling .5 MOA without benching, or at the very least an extremely comfortable prone set-up and taking all the time in the world to pull the trigger! Try new challenges to make yourself a better Hunter. Try freehand out to two hundred. Tell me now if your .5 group is there! If you can be within 6 inches you should be impressed all to hell. Now shoot off one knee, use a fence post, rest against a tree. The challenge should be geared to hunting. Not looking to kill the paper with .25 group of 5 shots.

One time I decided to use my .375-.416 Rem Mag for deer hunting. I went to the range to check myself with the Nosler partition 300 grainers. Offhand at 100, I fired three shots and made a 6" group. Then I sat down and fire three shots and again it was 6". A guy nearby asked, "Well, how does it do from the bench?" So I set a target at 500 yards. I brought back the target and measuredthe three shot group. Itwas 2 7/8". He exclaimed, "That's a squirrel gun!"

 

[Blackwater Red]

I was presented a "Texas Heart Shot" once. Great mule deer buck, the best I've ever seen, gave me the only opportunity I could get. I took it, using a 243 Winchester 70 gr HP at 100 yards. I left no hole, no bruised meat, just a mass of clotted blood in the abdomen. He dropped as soon as I shot. I could be called unethical now, but then I was hungry.

 

[memtb]

I was presented a "Texas Heart Shot" once. Great mule deer buck, the best I've ever seen, gave me the only opportunity I could get. I took it, using a 243 Winchester 70 gr HP at 100 yards. I left no hole, no bruised meat, just a mass of clotted blood in the abdomen. He dropped as soon as I shot. I could be called unethical now, but then I was hungry.

I'm not opposed to the "Texas Heart Shot", provided one is confident of bullet placement. Did you hit spine, or did it travel all the way through the diaphragm and into the lungs? If it went to the lungs, what bullet were you using? Thanks, memtb

 

[Blackwater Red]

I'm not opposed to the "Texas Heart Shot", provided one is confident of bullet placement. Did you hit spine, or did it travel all the way through the diaphragm and into the lungs? If it went to the lungs, what bullet were you using? Thanks, memtb

The bullet got to his diaphragm, rupturing the aorta along the way. I used a 70 Gr. Solid base Nosler Match Hollowpoint. This was 27 years ago, and I'm afraid I don't remember the loading details. I was sure I would hit where I aimed with that rifle and load combination in .243 Win.

 

[jimma123]

Anyone else have a hard time setting a rifle to the side and saying you're "done" with load development for it? Early on I was happy getting a box of 100 bullets and getting them to shoot MOA or better. I think I had lower expectations at that time and now seem to be on the extreme other end with very high expectations. More and more I find myself unable to stop tinkering with things in the never ending search of that undefined "perfect" combo. I can't be the only one with this affliction.haha

I'm sure you can all relate and also have countless test loads worked up that are at or below MOA. However, I am not happy with my results unless I'm half-MOA or better. ...and then when I do manage to get a rifle to shoot half-MOA, it's either not repeatable or this devil on my shoulder tells me to tweak the seating depth further, try a crimp, don't crimp, crimp more/less, try a different primer or brand of brass, tighten/loosen the action screws, maybe it'll like a different weight/profile bullet better, and on and on the cycle seems to go.

I'm not a PRS shooter and the main goal of my load development is for hunting purposes. I obviously don't need to be going this far down the rabbit hole.lol For those of you perfectionists out there, at what point do you call it good enough or feel happy with your results?

 

[jimma123]

Hi Silver bullet mag,
I'm new to Long Range, however over the years I have accumulated Toooo many rifles, loading equipment etc, I have found it often takes longer to learn to shoot some than others . it is not always the load that does not shoot!!

 

[Ted Rose]

Its a Hobby. You keep at it until you get tired of it and build a new rifle LOL...

 

[Ted Rose]

Hi Silver bullet mag,
I'm new to Long Range, however over the years I have accumulated Toooo many rifles, loading equipment etc, I have found it often takes longer to learn to shoot some than others . it is not always the load that does not shoot!!

I don't think you are ever really "done" with load development. Your load is only good for as long as you have the components you used to develop it, and as long as your gun will shoot it without wear affecting it. I do think that after you do get a good load developed, it's a bit easier to keep it shooting than it may have been to find it. Especially if you did what you were supposed to do and record everything about the load and how you got there.
I keep a running journal, save targets with data, etc to help out with that.

If I didn't enjoy and get so much satisfaction out of the entire process of load development, hand loading, shooting, and tinkering with guns, I'd have stuck to factory rifles and ammunition.

I've always been this way with everything I do.
I have to enjoy being totally immersed in all facets of whatever it is, or I find myself not doing it.

When I find myself getting tired of it, or making it work instead of fun, that's when I know it's time to take a break, and enjoy something else I like to do.

Everything is always right there, waiting for me to pick up where I left off.

 

[Ted Rose]

Now that you have the load that works the best for your rifle then stop working up a load for that rifle stock pile ammunition for that rifle go out and practice practice practice different places up pills down hills Teach your grandchildren to shoot your gun. You can never be too good