By the way a fella told me one time he shot a buck at 750 yards with a 30-30, He said he held about 2 ft over its back.Another one said him and one of his buddy's was shooting at a deer at 800 yards he said he shot at it with a .308 held 6 inches over it back and hit between its legs his buddy shot at it with a 6.5mm magnum held 6 inches over its back and shot over its back, he said know that a flat shootin gun.