Acceptable variance/runout???

[Lonewolf74]

I'm a hunter first and foremost so I'm not looking to really get into benchrest like methods of reloading, however I am a little bit of a perfectionist and strive to be as accurate as I can. So with that said I'm looking for opinions on what are the best steps and things to do for good accuracy without going into a full benchrest process of reloading and what are acceptable variances from cartridge to cartridge?

I've started with Forster FL and seater die set for my 243 and I resized about 30 case's last night using hornady unique (wax like) case lube and a rock chucker supreme press. Using the hornady case gage that attaches to a caliper I measured every case and had about .003 variance within the batch but the majority was right at 1.6215. I had 2 in a row get just a tad short so I cleaned the die and it was back on. So my question is, is this good or can it be better? I'd like to see no more than .001 variance if that's realistic?

I do have the die set to where the shell holder makes firm contact with the die. I did notice that some I resized went pretty smooth others felt sort of "gritty" and like they somewhat hung up as I resized but most still came out right on even when they felt this way. I lube each case by hand being pretty particular so I don't think it's a lubing issue. I guess I don't know what I could do to get the variance smaller?

The other thing that has me a little puzzled is I first set out to set the die to where it would bump the shoulder about .001 from the fired size. However the fired size of my case's are 1.6215-1.6225 with most being 1.6215. So this means I'm really not bumping the shoulder at all on most cases, most go in and come out 1.6215 and I can't adjust the die to bump more cus it's bottomed out on the shell holder. So is there something wrong or do I have a tighter chamber or what could this mean?

 

[rcoody]

First you are measuring shoulder bump not runout.

Lube the inside of your necks

Does the press cam over or is the die just touching the shell holder?

You shouldn't have to screw the die down to the shell holder to get a 1 thousandth shoulder bump. May have a short chamber or long die.

 

[FearNoWind]

1. I'm looking for opinions on what are the best steps and things to do for good accuracy without going into a full benchrest process of reloading and what are acceptable variances from cartridge to cartridge?

I'm not familiar with "acceptable variances". At least if there's a standard I haven't seen it published. My own standards are .001 -002, Don't overlook the fact that new brass has a tendency to spring back and, as the brass gets older and work hardened it will spring back less.

2. I cleaned the die and it was back on. So my question is, is this good or can it be better?

This suggests to me that you're using too much case lube and leaving residue in the die; probably collecting in the shoulder taper. I stopped using the wax that goes on with a finger swipe because it was too difficult to apply a consistent amount. I'd recommend one of these for lubing cases:

Redding Case Lube Pad with Lube: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/368674/redding-case-lube-pad

RCBS Case Lube Pad: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/772506/rcbs-case-lube-pad


RCBS Case Lube: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1458143436/rcbs-case-lube-2-liquid

I get a much better "feel" for how much lube is on the case, the RCBS lube is water soluble so it comes off in the sonic cleaner.

3. I'd like to see no more than .001 variance if that's realistic?

You claim not to be an obsessive reloader ".... I'm not looking to really get into benchrest like methods of reloading..." But if you want to hold your tolerances to the .001 standard you certainly are one of us. Is it realistic? Sure it is. But it's a lot of work, a lot of measuring and remeasuring, sizing and resizing, tedious activity.

4. I did notice that some I resized went pretty smooth others felt sort of "gritty" and like they somewhat hung up

The "gritty" feeling in the die can be caused by excess lube and, oddly enough, not enough lube. As long as your cases and dies are impeccably clean I wouldn't worry about it being anything else.

5. I lube each case by hand being pretty particular so I don't think it's a lubing issue. I guess I don't know what I could do to get the variance smaller?

It's difficult to control the amount of lube on the cases when we put it one with a finger swipe and it certainly doesn't go on the case in an even layer.

 

[Lonewolf74]

Thanks rcoody and yes I know runout and shoulder bump are different. I haven't got to runout yet just the variance I get in my resizing. Though I'm not sure if I do know exactly what runout is I thought it was variance in OAL from base to ogive and or bullet base to ogive. Is that right or is it something else?

 

[rcoody]

Thanks rcoody and yes I know runout and shoulder bump are different. I haven't got to runout yet just the variance I get in my resizing. Though I'm not sure if I do know exactly what runout is I thought it was variance in OAL from base to ogive and or bullet base to ogive. Is that right or is it something else?

That is exactly right.

The truth is that 1 thousandth shoulder bump is all about brass life. Measure your.fired brass and a factory loaded round. You will be.suprised at the difference.

Now not bumping the shoulder like the.neck sizing crowd will soon bring you to rounds that are hard to chamber.

New brass may not fully fireform to your chamber on the.first firing. This may be some of the variations you see in your fired brass. After 3 firings with a .001 shoulder bump those fired cases should be identical. That is if all the brass is the same headstamp and number of firings.

All this gets very complicated very quickly when you go down the rabbit hole.

 

[Lonewolf74]

Thankyou for the reply fear no wind. I guess what I meant by not wanting to get into a full bench rest routine is as of now at least I'm not gonna turn necks, weigh and measure each case, bullet and all that sort of stuff. I guess what I'm looking for is a happy medium between being benchrest fanatical and average reloader. I do think with something like sizing a case you should be able to keep around .001 variance in a batch because there's not many variables. Now when you add in seating a bullet that variance could be closer to .003 because case length and variance from bullet to bullet all plays a factor.

For now my focus is how to get each case resized almost exact, within .001 then I'll focus on the next step. To start I'll try different lube and lubing process but other than that what are things to do to keep it exact?

 

[rcoody]

You are cleaning your cases before sizing aren't you?

If so

Lube the inside of your necks with this. It is the expander ball dragging through the necks that gives you that feel

Imperial Application Media with Imperial Dry Neck Lube

 

[rcoody]

I have been using this for.decades. i started with the rcbs case lube and pad. What a nasty way to lube cases. Just a little sizing wax on your fingers and apply as you are putting the.case in the shell holder. But each his own. As long as it works for you

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/519525/imperial-case-sizing-wax-2-oz

 

[Lonewolf74]

I do clean the cases before I resize in an ultrasonic cleaner. I don't get them super clean but to where there's no dirt or grime and then I clean them again after resizing. I do lube the inside and outside of the neck with the unique lube using one of those foam like q-tip things for gun cleaning. Works slick but I spend more time lubing each case then I'd like.

I'm gonna pick up some stuff to try a different lube process and see how that effects things. For my 223 I put the cases in a Tupper Ware container and roll the cases around as I put a couple squirts of the RCBS lube on. This works for them and plinking rounds bit definitely not the method to use while trying to be precise.

 

[Lonewolf74]

1. I'm looking for opinions on what are the best steps and things to do for good accuracy without going into a full benchrest process of reloading and what are acceptable variances from cartridge to cartridge?

I'm not familiar with "acceptable variances". At least if there's a standard I haven't seen it published. My own standards are .001 -002, Don't overlook the fact that new brass has a tendency to spring back and, as the brass gets older and work hardened it will spring back less.

I should have clarified, what sort of tolerance do I need to strive for to not see it on paper or to keep 1/2" moa? I know my rifle is capable of this because I've done it a fair amount with factory hornady ammo. However I also have fairly often when I'll put 2 shots right on top of each other then a 3rd 3/4" away and sometimes there all an inch apart, this is what I want to eliminate. I know sometimes it could be me and perhaps maybe my rifle but I believe the culprit is really the ammo.

I know with my AR I shrunk my group average from 1" to 3/8" with my hand loads, I'm impressed and happy with that but I now think it can be even better cus my variance with those loads are around .005 using a dillon 550 press and dillon dies. I assumed the variance would be greater on a progressive press but I'm not seeing a whole lot better on my rock chucker with Forster dies and I thought I would.

 

[FearNoWind]

... I'm not gonna turn necks, ... I do think with something like sizing a case you should be able to keep around .001

For now my focus is how to get each case resized almost exact, within .001 then I'll focus on the next step. To start I'll try different lube and lubing process but other than that what are things to do to keep it exact?

There's just one more factor that you may have overlooked. The wall thicknesses of the necks on most brass aren't always held to a strict standard (hence the reason for neck turning) and that may very well prove to exacerbate your frustration with holding the tolerances you're hoping to achieve.
One last note: When your groups open up and you are absolutely certain that it's not the shooter, a level of certainty that I rarely achieve, look first at your load/seating depth before considering a difference in runout of less than .003

 

[rcoody]

There's just one more factor that you may have overlooked. The wall thicknesses of the necks on most brass aren't always held to a strict standard (hence the reason for neck turning) and that may very well prove to exacerbate your frustration with holding the tolerances you're hoping to achieve.
One last note: When your groups open up and you are absolutely certain that it's not the shooter, a level of certainty that I rarely achieve, look first at your load/seating depth before considering a difference in runout of less than .003

Down the rabbit hole we go!

I reccomend using these tools to cull your brass. Don't start neck turning. Trust me. I am an addict!


Tools for Measuring Case Necks within AccurateShooter.com

 

[Lonewolf74]

There's just one more factor that you may have overlooked. The wall thicknesses of the necks on most brass aren't always held to a strict standard (hence the reason for neck turning) and that may very well prove to exacerbate your frustration with holding the tolerances you're hoping to achieve.
One last note: When your groups open up and you are absolutely certain that it's not the shooter, a level of certainty that I rarely achieve, look first at your load/seating depth before considering a difference in runout of less than .003

Thanks for the input again and this is the kind of stuff I'm looking for, like what factors usually make the biggest difference?

For example I did some load work ups for my AR and seated all the bullets at max mag length wich happened to be .020 off the lands and found the charge that was most accurate. Then I used that charge and loaded several rounds with the bullet seated .030 and .040 off the lands. Accuracy went from 3/8" at .020 to 7/8" at .030 so noticeably better just with where the bullets seated.

 

[Lonewolf74]

I should say that at some point I may neck turn and sort all components but for now I don't have the tools and really don't want to spend the time to do so. Kind of looking for the steps to focus on to get the biggest accuracy/ consistency gains and skip the other's. However if I don't see the gains I'm looking for I'll continue to add steps till I get there.