A race to the bottom

[milo-2]

Is your smith north or south of Gillette? Just curious.

Lol, actually west, off Force Rd.

 

[Savage 12BVSS]

To each their own but I don't see anything going down hill as far as quality and results.

Thats exactly how its been for me too. Spin one up/spin one on Its the new catch phrase don't ya know

 

[Rhovee]

There is some great info being said here. I agree with the cheapest you can get but still have some what of an accurate gun. Accuracy to some people is a small 100 yard group. When I see a "match grade" barrel listed it usually means it's not a top barrel company. I also see people pushing components not because they are the best, but because they make the most mark up on them. I own a couple proof carbon barrels and have had a few bad ones as well. 50/50 so far which is really bad. I regret ever doing one. But if you can make $200 a carbon barrel instead of $50-$70 on a steel one, why not?

 

[J E Custom]

I guess I really would want to hear the reasoning behind that suggestion, if it goes deeper than they must feel you can't thread the barrel into the reciever........or maybe you can't possibly headspace it youself. Wonder what the charge is to do it for you?

This may not be the reason, But I feel it is necessary to get a good head space and may be their reasoning, because many people don't account for this feature when head spacing a Savage.

When I do a savage I replace the bolt friction washer behind the bolt head with a flat washer the same thickness so the head space is a more positive reading. (The spring action of the friction washer will give different readings) after the head space is set the factory bolt friction washer Is re installed.

I use a flat washer or shim that is ground to the same thickness so there is no difference when the bolt is under ignition pressure. And then after everything is made up and the barrel nut torqued, I recheck the head space to verify that it has not changed by using non compressible shims behind the go gauge and go ahead and compress the friction washer.

There are many little tricks/processes that some smiths do routinely and don't even think about it that a novice would miss. These little things can make a difference.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Savage 12BVSS]

Pretty much how my gunsmith taught me, I'm just a little more obsessive and take a bit more time doing it. He has a shim actually that you use when headspacing savage barrels. I've done quite a few now so its not a challenge like the first one was. Heck my barrel vise has a permanent place on the end of my loading bench. Should be seeing some action in a couple week's. Thank you for advice, You're one on this site that really shares your knowledge. Someone may read this on here that don't know and learn.

 

[ATH]

Entirely empirical experience...I've got one fully custom rifle from a maker most of you would recognize and the accuracy would not amaze any of you. It's not bad. It's just not awesome. Now I have a big stable full of pre-fit equipped rifles, on both Savage, R700, and R700 clone actions. My only other custom is my F-Class competition rifle on a Panda action. That particular rifle is advantaged by an entire shooting system of front/rear rests compatibly designed with the rifle to maximize long range accuracy.

Darned if my 338 Edge build with a McGowan pre-fit barrel and a Stiller Predator action doesn't shoot right in with that custom F-class rifle. Took third in a 2000 yard competition against uniformly heavier and more expensive guns.

I have additional prefit guns in R700 (20 Practical, 6X45) and both are sub-.5MOA. Savage, 243AI, again sub-.5MOA. All of these prefit guns are superior to my one custom in overall accuracy. Only the 338 Edge benefits from a custom action, the others are factory actions. I send dummy rounds in to have the throats set, seems to work spectacularly.

 

[GunHawk]

Figured walnut & blued, even Parkerized steel gives me warm fuzzies. Plastic & stainless is functional but less appealing. Some of these new modern rifles are downright insulting to my senses. Flat out ugly, but new rifle accuracy is way past what many custom guns were doing 40 years ago. Good, bad, or otherwise that's what's happening. I dont like it much, but am just a grumpy old curmudgeon & will be gone in 10 to 20 years.

It's called progress.... or something. I think the real life definition of that word has changed like so many others in the recent past. Out of necessity to work on the old stuff or build really high-zoot hot rod guns, there will remain a few old timers who teach younger machinist/gunsmiths the trade, but they will be far fewer & probably noticeably more expensive than today. Guns are becoming more modular, like cars. Where's Remington today? Where are the new Model 70s coming from? I have no 1st hand experience with this so correct me if I'm wrong, but look at how Savages are made. Screw on a new barrel & adjust headspace with shims or bolt faces. Done. Good to go. That sounds awfully modular to me. I hear they shoot well too.

In another life I fixed cars. I see an almost identical parallel happening with the two. They told me I was good at it, & paid me well. I was even licensed & certified (no, not like that). Up until the 70s & early 80s most things, from starters, to generators, to transmissions & engines, were rebuildable. At one time everything was adjustable. That changed a little more every year until not so much anymore. It's cheaper to buy a crate motor than do a quality rebuild. Try to buy a diode pack... or bearings for your alternator at your local dealership. Mechanics are now called technicians & about all they do is replace assemblies. The last automotive job I had (part time) was rebuilding vintage race cars, but it was mostly engine work. Many were pretty much one-offs to start with, so not many parts were available off the shelf at the local NAPA. It was another learning experience. Life goes on & the world keeps on turning... & we have progress.

This is not new, look at what happened to the British gunmakers. They were head and shoulders above everyone else, but at some point labor costs become significant. It is estimated that it took 2,000 man hours to make a gun their way. So eventually machines replaced them. Cost of living is outstripping wages and despite retirement benefits and SS, I'm sure 20 or so years from now I will have to live in an undesirable location and get used to the taste of cat food. Hopefully my taste buds will deteriorate at the same rate as the rest of me.

 

[J E Custom]

Defiance still recommends you have a gunsmith spin your prefit barrel on and headspace it.

Unless they fit the barrel to the action and the bolt, I question how they can guarantee .001 head space.

I have only been a custom rifle owner and accuracy chaser for about 5 years. I have become good friends with a couple awesome gun smiths and people. I have talked to them about the industry and it seems some things are changing. With advancement in components such as Defiance actions, Pre-fit barrels,CNC machines, there seems to be less and less need for gunsmiths over the years. How can they be competitive with action companies offering actions with .001 guarantee headspace for $1,000, and proof research offering chambered carbon barrels with threaded ends for $875. Couple that with a self timing muzzle break and you are off to the races. I personally only trust a few gunsmiths and would never buy a pre-fit from a known barrel company. I am glad that the industry is growing, but it seems that this is going to come at a cost.

I would have to question how they would/could guarantee .001 head space unless they assembled the barrel, action and bolt and shipped it complete ready to go.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Hatrick]

This is not new, look at what happened to the British gunmakers. They were head and shoulders above everyone else, but at some point labor costs become significant. It is estimated that it took 2,000 man hours to make a gun their way. So eventually machines replaced them. Cost of living is outstripping wages and despite retirement benefits and SS, I'm sure 20 or so years from now I will have to live in an undesirable location and get used to the taste of cat food. Hopefully my taste buds will deteriorate at the same rate as the rest of me.

Stay in Florida and start fishing!

 

[shortgrass]

2000hrs is a years work. Work 50 weeks (52 weeks in a year) at 40hrs per week and you will have worked 2000hrs. It takes me right at 100hrs for me to inlet, shape and sand a rifle stock from a blank, and I'm slow.. The more stocks you make the faster you will get 'till you "hit the wall". If you add another 20 hrs for the checkering, and another 20 for the metal work, that would include slow rust bluing, you will have 140-150 hrs in building a rifle using an action some other company made, a barrel some other company made, and bottom metal someone else made. During the build process, you'd be making alterations to all 3 of those. A client of the "old English gunmakers" might have had to wait a year or longer for his order to be filled, but I have doubts that the gunmaker put 2000hrs into the making of the gun. European firearms must be 'proofed', also. That could be part of that years wait. And, it must be remembered that the firearm laws in England are much different than they are here. Any item, that is truly "custom", is gonna' cost significantly more than a similar item that might serve the same purpose, but mass produced, that is purchased 'off the shelf'.

 

[GunHawk]

2000hrs is a years work. Work 50 weeks (52 weeks in a year) at 40hrs per week and you will have worked 2000hrs. It takes me right at 100hrs for me to inlet, shape and sand a rifle stock from a blank, and I'm slow.. The more stocks you make the faster you will get 'till you "hit the wall". If you add another 20 hrs for the checkering, and another 20 for the metal work, that would include slow rust bluing, you will have 140-150 hrs in building a rifle using an action some other company made, a barrel some other company made, and bottom metal someone else made. During the build process, you'd be making alterations to all 3 of those. A client of the "old English gunmakers" might have had to wait a year or longer for his order to be filled, but I have doubts that the gunmaker put 2000hrs into the making of the gun. European firearms must be 'proofed', also. That could be part of that years wait. And, it must be remembered that the firearm laws in England are much different than they are here. Any item, that is truly "custom", is gonna' cost significantly more than a similar item that might serve the same purpose, but mass produced, that is purchased 'off the shelf'.

All of it was done by hand, including engraving, stocking, barrel soldering striking and regulation, stock bending and oil finishing, etc. But I can't say for sure, I only read it somewhere (probably Shooting Sportsman or Double Gun Journal).

 

[BrentM]

It usually takes me 30 hours to build a rifle that is more than just off the shelf pieces. This mostly assembly with slight mods and things like stripping, bedding, and painting.

 

[shortgrass]

All of it was done by hand, including engraving, stocking, barrel soldering striking and regulation, stock bending and oil finishing, etc. But I can't say for sure, I only read it somewhere (probably Shooting Sportsman or Double Gun Journal).

Some of those companies are still in business,,,,, like the John Rigby Co. and Holland and Holland. What you are referencing is known as "Londons' Best". Very few were/are built. They are commissioned by the most affluent of client to begin with, and most likely never fired after proofing. Rigby and H&H still offer 'hunting rifles and shotguns', and there are more than a few right here in the Ol' USA still building by hand, The David Miller Co., Duane Wiebe, Steven Hughes, just to name a few. I have soldered shotgun barrels. Removed a loose rib, cleaned out all the old solder and then soldered the rib back in place. All of my wood is hand rubbed oil, and they are made with hand tools, chisels, gouges, scrapers, hand files. I do use my drill press to start the 'hole' for the magazine box to be inletted into, but I am certain the gunsmiths of old used a drill of some sort, also. Hand rubbed oil can be repaired if damaged where as the modern finishes like Rem/Win/Browning do not repair easily. And,, they shoot! My rifles get used, hunted with. I personally know two firearms engravers. Men that cut each and every line with graver and chaser hammer. I still have my doubts that even "Londons' Best" took 2000hrs/a full year to build back before modern machinery and techniques were employed. Maybe.......... And now we're at that "Race to the Bottom".