6.5-06 vs 6.5X284 vs 6.5 Sherman

[Trickymissfit]

How big is that hole?

If it don't shoot well at short range, it won't shoot well at long range; with one exception.

No way do bullets at the edge of a virtual short range group know how to change direction and go back into the center of a way down range group; virtual or on paper. This appllies to windage and elevation spreads with front locking bolt action rifles.

Vertical ones don't apply when you're using rear locking British SMLE's with large muzzle velocity spreads; they're famous for shooting much better at long range than short range.

Ok is it just me, or has anybody else here ran into this. Shooting Berger 88 grain LD's a few years back; the groups were not great but usable. Yet when I shot them at 400 yards they were great! I've also seen this with a few VLD class bullets in the past (not everyone of them). I attributted some of this to an "over stabalization factor", but honestly couldn't really prove this out if I wanted to. This was not a knock against Walt's bullets, but just something I ran into. One thing I did notice was that at 100 yards the holes were not round like the others, but at longer ranges they were round (I used the 88's out as far as 675 yards). Later I tried a box of the 69 grain LD's and saw exactly the samething, if not worse. I thought it was just me, and a buddy tried them in a 6BR that was built by Ron Pence, and he got the same results.
gary

 

[Bart B]

One thing I did notice was that at 100 yards the holes were not round like the others, but at longer ranges they were round (I used the 88's out as far as 675 yards). Later I tried a box of the 69 grain LD's and saw exactly the samething, if not worse.

Sierra Bullets may well be the outfit that's done more tests in this area than any other. They do say that most bullets are stable (flying down range with their long axis parallel to the trajectory path) by 100 yards. But there are some combinations of bullet, muzzle velocity and twist that doesn't allow the bullet to stabilize until further down range.

Over stabilized bullets are typically those that are shot too fast for the rifling twist and spin so darned fast their very slight unbalance is enough to cause the centrifugal forces built up that they wobble way too much all the way to the target. Such bullets are usually not too accurate.

On the other hand, very well balanced bullets can be shot such that their spin rate in rpm's is much more than needed and they'll still shoot very accurate. But they will have more spin drift as range increases.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Sierra Bullets may well be the outfit that's done more tests in this area than any other. They do say that most bullets are stable (flying down range with their long axis parallel to the trajectory path) by 100 yards. But there are some combinations of bullet, muzzle velocity and twist that doesn't allow the bullet to stabilize until further down range.

Over stabilized bullets are typically those that are shot too fast for the rifling twist and spin so darned fast their very slight unbalance is enough to cause the centrifugal forces built up that they wobble way too much all the way to the target. Such bullets are usually not too accurate.

On the other hand, very well balanced bullets can be shot such that their spin rate in rpm's is much more than needed and they'll still shoot very accurate. But they will have more spin drift as range increases.

that's pretty much what I was trying to say, but the deal with the Bergers still bugs me!
gary

 

[Trickymissfit]

I think I found the problem with the Bergers, and it may well be operator error! The BC of the 88 grain bullet is .391, and I was shooting the thru 1:9 barrels a very high velocities ( 6mm using old .257 brass and H414 powder at close to 3400fps (I'll have to hunt the log book up forthose two rifles to make sure). I was probably putting them thru a massive over spin that showed up at under two hundred yards; yet looked outstanding at 600 yards. Berger calls out a 1:10 twist barrel for these bullets. I now think that if I'd slowed them down to 3200; they'd probably shot better a shorter yardages. Make sense?
gary

 

[ranger1183]

Just a head's up. Anyone looking into building a rifle in a caliber similar to the 6.5-06AI / 6.5 Sherman, Kenny at FMS in Kalispell, MT has the reamer for the 6.5-280AI. I'm having my rifle put together by him right now.

Kenny is a great guy and you will very much like doing business with him. Unless you are Ebenezer Scrooge, that is!

Firearms Machining Services
957 Rose Xing # 31, Kalispell, MT 59901
(406) 755-5116

 

[Apex Custom Rifles]

Earlier this year, I caught the 6.5 bug and built myself a 6.5-280 RCBS. Which is a blown out 6.5-280 with a 30 degree improved shoulder, which IMO is the best and most accurate producing shoulder angle you can have.

Mine has two accuracy nodes at 2860 fps, and another one at 3,100 fps. My lower node I have been using the 142 SMK's. The higher node is using the 130 Nosler accubonds. I'm sure I could push the 142's up there, but I don't have a need to at this moment. I built it with a 26" 1-8" Shilen SS barrel. ( My first Shilen barrel... it's OK!)

My case capacity to the top of the neck is 73gr H2O. So sounds like it is similar in capacity to the Sherman.

I have mainly used 280 Rem brass, but have used .270 brass in a pinch.

Here's a photo. If I recall left to right is: .270 win, 6.5-06, and 6.5-280 RCBS.

As far as forming brass. I have a .264 WM FL die that perfectly necks my brass to the perfect depth when the shell holder touches the bottom of the die. Then I shoot normally. I get good groups when fire forming, so I usually just load and shoot, then neck size. Mine is also built on a 1917 enfield action with canted lugs, so FL sizing is not needed before the primer pockets give out in my rifle. It will shoot 5 shots in the 3's if everything is working with me.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Earlier this year, I caught the 6.5 bug and built myself a 6.5-280 RCBS. Which is a blown out 6.5-280 with a 30 degree improved shoulder, which IMO is the best and most accurate producing shoulder angle you can have.

Mine has two accuracy nodes at 2860 fps, and another one at 3,100 fps. My lower node I have been using the 142 SMK's. The higher node is using the 130 Nosler accubonds. I'm sure I could push the 142's up there, but I don't have a need to at this moment. I built it with a 26" 1-8" Shilen SS barrel. ( My first Shilen barrel... it's OK!)

My case capacity to the top of the neck is 73gr H2O. So sounds like it is similar in capacity to the Sherman.

I have mainly used 280 Rem brass, but have used .270 brass in a pinch.

Here's a photo. If I recall left to right is: .270 win, 6.5-06, and 6.5-280 RCBS.

As far as forming brass. I have a .264 WM FL die that perfectly necks my brass to the perfect depth when the shell holder touches the bottom of the die. Then I shoot normally. I get good groups when fire forming, so I usually just load and shoot, then neck size. Mine is also built on a 1917 enfield action with canted lugs, so FL sizing is not needed before the primer pockets give out in my rifle. It will shoot 5 shots in the 3's if everything is working with me.

interesting. I've been interested in doing a 6.5 and a 30 caliber off similar cases (they'll be headspaced differently for saftey alone). Been thinking about the .257 RCBS or the .257AI necked up to 6.5mm. The 30 caliber chamber would also be similar, but the case length will be slightly shorter with a .33" neck length. The idea is not to be able to mix them up for my own personal saftey. I think I can safley see 2900 fps with a 140 grain bullet in the 6.5, but the real goal in to use longer & heavier bullets. The thirty would have a datum line that's about .070" longer. The goal here is to see 200 fps over the .308 in the 170 thru 190 grain bullet range. Don't know if I will get there, but honestly think that 150 fps is easilly attainable. I need to CAD these rounds out to see where I stand on them, as the 30 caliber idea may not fit in the 57mm case length.
gary

 

[elkaholic]

interesting. I've been interested in doing a 6.5 and a 30 caliber off similar cases (they'll be headspaced differently for saftey alone). Been thinking about the .257 RCBS or the .257AI necked up to 6.5mm. The 30 caliber chamber would also be similar, but the case length will be slightly shorter with a .33" neck length. The idea is not to be able to mix them up for my own personal saftey. I think I can safley see 2900 fps with a 140 grain bullet in the 6.5, but the real goal in to use longer & heavier bullets. The thirty would have a datum line that's about .070" longer. The goal here is to see 200 fps over the .308 in the 170 thru 190 grain bullet range. Don't know if I will get there, but honestly think that 150 fps is easilly attainable. I need to CAD these rounds out to see where I stand on them, as the 30 caliber idea may not fit in the 57mm case length.
gary

I know you considered the Sherman in 6.5 but don't know if you realize I also have a 300 based on the same case? The 300 will get 3050' with a 190 easily. I realize it is longer than what you were looking at but thought I would throw it out there. The case bodies are identical for the two so I can form all my brass with the same hydro die.....Rich

 

[Trickymissfit]

So here goes....My Blackberry is not the best quality camera and my lighting is attrocious but you can get and idea.....The first few are my 6.5-06 sendero action HS stock Brux Barrel 8.5 twist, the blued gun is my wifes 22-250 that I had a bull barrel attached to trued 30-06 action and bedded in HS stock(nice spider web green), the last is my 6-284. These were the three I had varying amounts of work done to this summer. All are bedded and accurized/trued actions. In case your wondering, that is a Cowan rest.

amazing! That rest your using looks almost identical to one that I built, but with a different top. We even use the same type adjusting screws on the legs.
Must be a mind reader
gary

 

[hammertyme]

Very interesting stuff here.
I have been running the Gibbs wildcats off and on (mostly on) since the mid "90's)

The times it was off is when I got tired of forming new brass do to loss of primer pockets trying to get appreciable velocity increases over the standard 6.5 X 06 or 270 cases.

I mistakenly put a 40 degree shoulder on the first reamer I made and found pressure before the velocity increase I wanted. After that I took the RWS 7X65R case and had a reamer built from those case dimensions and with a 30 degree shoulder and a .250 neck length.

Now, five full years of this later combination I have yet to loose a case and I went from an Average speed with 130gr Accubonds of 2855 and good case life to 3100fps with the RWS case and the same bullet with great case life.

I even use the 280 RWS case and nearly get the same results. I am convinced that the rim on the super tough 7X65R RWS is what is keeping the primer pockets nice and snug. The rimmed case feeds great in my WSM bolthead of the Savages.

The 6.5, 7,30 calibers came as a result of the parrent 338 Gibbs of which I and my wife have been hunting with for the past 5 years. My experience with the tough cases is the 30 and 338 Gibbs will duplicate the 300 H&H and 338 WIN Mag velocities with good case life. The throw away cases from factory ammo today have not been good for me.

Neal

 

[Trickymissfit]

I know you considered the Sherman in 6.5 but don't know if you realize I also have a 300 based on the same case? The 300 will get 3050' with a 190 easily. I realize it is longer than what you were looking at but thought I would throw it out there. The case bodies are identical for the two so I can form all my brass with the same hydro die.....Rich

No I didn't know about the 30 cailber, or else forgot about it. I have not even found a good donor action yet, but a Savage looks like what I want. With your cartridge I'd need a long action, and that still is not a problem. 3000 fps with a 190 grain bullet is impressive, and that's .300 mag territory! Did you try any of the Sierra 175's? Also what barrel length did you use? I'd prefer a 24", and as I said the goal was 2900fps witha 175 grain bullet. As for the 6.5, I'm looking a very efficient catridges these days. I've always liked the 6.5-06 as well as the 6.5-06AI, and the Sherman fall right in that group as well. But the one pitfall here (to be very honest with you) is the idea of shooting a 30 and a 6.5mm off the same basic case. Sooner or later something bad is gonna happen! That's why I always stayed away from the .257 Roberts even though I dearly love that cartridge. I also like the 6mm Remington, and that's a blow up waiting to happen when you got both.

First priority next year is of course the 6BG project, and a rebarrel job on my .223 Remington 700. (actually I have something of even higher priority) Those will be fairly easy to get outta the way, and should be shooting them before the first of June. Then I'll turn to the 6.5 and 30 caliber projects. I do have one other gun related project that's very elusive. I want to build either a .405 Winchester or a 40-65 in a Hi-Wall. Donor actions are pricey and uncommon around here. These will be BPCR long range gun shooters. Incase you have not heard; I have a serious passion for Hi-Walls and leggy red heads.
gary

 

[elkaholic]

Very interesting stuff here.
I have been running the Gibbs wildcats off and on (mostly on) since the mid "90's)

The times it was off is when I got tired of forming new brass do to loss of primer pockets trying to get appreciable velocity increases over the standard 6.5 X 06 or 270 cases.

I mistakenly put a 40 degree shoulder on the first reamer I made and found pressure before the velocity increase I wanted. After that I took the RWS 7X65R case and had a reamer built from those case dimensions and with a 30 degree shoulder and a .250 neck length.

Now, five full years of this later combination I have yet to loose a case and I went from an Average speed with 130gr Accubonds of 2855 and good case life to 3100fps with the RWS case and the same bullet with great case life.

I even use the 280 RWS case and nearly get the same results. I am convinced that the rim on the super tough 7X65R RWS is what is keeping the primer pockets nice and snug. The rimmed case feeds great in my WSM bolthead of the Savages.

The 6.5, 7,30 calibers came as a result of the parrent 338 Gibbs of which I and my wife have been hunting with for the past 5 years. My experience with the tough cases is the 30 and 338 Gibbs will duplicate the 300 H&H and 338 WIN Mag velocities with good case life. The throw away cases from factory ammo today have not been good for me.

Neal

Neal.....looks like you discovered the same thing I did. The 6.5x65 RWS case is indeed a lot tougher and I started using it in my 300 Sherman Max case. You also get the added length which is really nice to work with. You really should consider the sherman reamer as the case capacity is a fuzz better than the Gibbs with a .317" neck...Rich

 

[elkaholic]

No I didn't know about the 30 cailber, or else forgot about it. I have not even found a good donor action yet, but a Savage looks like what I want. With your cartridge I'd need a long action, and that still is not a problem. 3000 fps with a 190 grain bullet is impressive, and that's .300 mag territory! Did you try any of the Sierra 175's? Also what barrel length did you use? I'd prefer a 24", and as I said the goal was 2900fps witha 175 grain bullet. As for the 6.5, I'm looking a very efficient catridges these days. I've always liked the 6.5-06 as well as the 6.5-06AI, and the Sherman fall right in that group as well. But the one pitfall here (to be very honest with you) is the idea of shooting a 30 and a 6.5mm off the same basic case. Sooner or later something bad is gonna happen! That's why I always stayed away from the .257 Roberts even though I dearly love that cartridge. I also like the 6mm Remington, and that's a blow up waiting to happen when you got both.

First priority next year is of course the 6BG project, and a rebarrel job on my .223 Remington 700. (actually I have something of even higher priority) Those will be fairly easy to get outta the way, and should be shooting them before the first of June. Then I'll turn to the 6.5 and 30 caliber projects. I do have one other gun related project that's very elusive. I want to build either a .405 Winchester or a 40-65 in a Hi-Wall. Donor actions are pricey and uncommon around here. These will be BPCR long range gun shooters. Incase you have not heard; I have a serious passion for Hi-Walls and leggy red heads.
gary

Gary....I have a 28" barrel on my 300 and I only use my own bullets so have not tried the 175 sierras. I did shoot a couple of 150 sierras one day just for grins and reached 3400' with RL-17 and it wasn't quite max! As far as the headstamp problem goes, here is what I would do. Use the .270 brass for the 6.5 and .280 for the 300. As Neal also stated, the 6.5x65 RWS is excellent, but spendy.......Rich

 

[Apex Custom Rifles]

I am curious as to what you guys are getting for case life out of your vairous 6.5's?

My 6.5-280 RCBS usually last me about 20 firings before ether my case starts getting tight or my primer pockets fail under normal non-high pressure loads. I figure by then I have gotten my $$$$'s worth out of a case. I have been using Rem .280 cases mainly.

I have thought about using Norma, or Nosler .280 brass, and If I do I might try and get a little more life out of them, but I have yet to get a custom die made. I have been getting by alright without one.