.308 Winchester - Remington Mod 700 VLS (Varminter Laminated Stock) - 26" Bullbarrel

[M Rosslee]

Hi all

Purchased a Remington Model 700 VLS with 26" bullbarrel.

Problem is, there aren't many of the same in South Africa.

Considering the gap that divides our fine countries in respect of firearms is our propellants - I'd like to hear what shooters with the same rifle are using in terms of:

1. bullet weight and form
2. the velocity that they're slinging the projectile at;
3. what do the groups look like?

We have to wait for our rifle licences here before we can shoot So might as well get excited in respect of the theory.

I'm thinking with the 26" barrel and 1:12" twist, heavier bullets such as the 175gr Matchking will work nicely... Although I'd prefer some velocity.

Look forward to your comments.

 

[liltank]

Howdy from North America. I have a very similar setup. I have a Lothar Walther 1:12 28" barrel. I'm currently using RWS brass trimmed to 2.005" annealed and full length sized with a Redding FL sizing die with a .334" nitride bushing. My latest work up was with 175 tipped matchking. Using 41.5grns of Alliant Ar-Comp, it produced .634"@200yds. That is like .3moa for that distance. That was a 3 shot group prone from a shooting mat of of a target rest and rear bag. Velocity is an avg of 2741fps, SD of 4fps. ES of 4fps. OAL measured to the ogive is 2.224". That is roughly .018" from the lands. I have shot 175 Nosler custom comps to great effect. One of my best loads was with a Nosler 168 ballistic tip using the same powder as above only at 42.8grains. I shot a 3 shot group at 713yds that measures 1.5". That was prone. This same load produced a .116" shot group prone. Have fun.

Tank.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Tank... What's going on man? Been a long time since I seen you post. How's things?

 

[M Rosslee]

Howdy from North America. I have a very similar setup. I have a Lothar Walther 1:12 28" barrel. I'm currently using RWS brass trimmed to 2.005" annealed and full length sized with a Redding FL sizing die with a .334" nitride bushing. My latest work up was with 175 tipped matchking. Using 41.5grns of Alliant Ar-Comp, it produced .634"@200yds. That is like .3moa for that distance. That was a 3 shot group prone from a shooting mat of of a target rest and rear bag. Velocity is an avg of 2741fps, SD of 4fps. ES of 4fps. OAL measured to the ogive is 2.224". That is roughly .018" from the lands. I have shot 175 Nosler custom comps to great effect. One of my best loads was with a Nosler 168 ballistic tip using the same powder as above only at 42.8grains. I shot a 3 shot group at 713yds that measures 1.5". That was prone. This same load produced a .116" shot group prone. Have fun.

Tank.

Thank you Tank.

Interesting. I know that the 1:12 slow twist stabilizes the heavier projectiles well and the 26" barrel length is short for long distance shooting... I'm going to get 30-06 performance out of my 308 which is not ideal because my 30-06 shoot 0.60MOA at 300m

Maybe remove the 26" billet and fit a 30" pipe on the Rem Mod 700 action.. Will be a sweet thing...

Currently running the 06 at 2650fps with 180gr Sierra Matchking HPBT's. They print nicely with an effective cartridge length of 70.12mm and 53.2gr Somchem S365... There are also no pressure signs and I'm running that nice velocity out of a 22" standard barrel with a 1:10" twist... Although the trajectory is not what most would desire, I'm very confident on subMOA performance all the way out to 500m. Haven't shot further than that with her yet... That also on a 1.5mm jump..

I hope my metric is less difficult for you to read than your imperial was for me

What would your opinion be on running 168's (I'm thinking Nosler CC's) out of the 308? Have you had any joy with the 160gr range? Hoping to run them at around 2800.

Thank you for your input.

gun) gun) gun)

 

[barefooter56]

M Rosslee,
Is this rifle going to be used for hunting or target or both? And does being able to load the magazine a must for you?

 

[M Rosslee]

M Rosslee,
Is this rifle going to be used for hunting or target or both? And does being able to load the magazine a must for you?

Primarily a paper shooting rifle. When I shoot target I never load the mag and feed out of the ammo box...

Can also fit it in a decent aluminium chassis which I'm strongly considering.

What are your thoughts?

 

[barefooter56]

M Rosslee,
The aluminum Chassis sounds like a good idea . I have two of the old Fred Sinclair aluminum v-block stocks that I run Remington actions in with NO bedding. One for Prone and on for FTR. The 26 inch tube should not be an issue unless its just a bad barrel. And that you wont know till you get it broke in and go to load tuning. If its accurate , use it to practice and working up loads for different bullets in the weight ranges that work with your twist rate (1-12). Our 155.5 FULL BORE, 168 VLD TARGET, are two that show your 1-12 twist rate to be OPTIMAL. Go to our TWIST RATE CALCULATOR to see what the altitude you will be shooting at can do for you with our bullets that have an optimal twist rate of 1-11. That will give you even more choices. For short ranges-100-200 yards look at our 150 grain FB TARGET bullet. Once you've confirmed that you like the rifle and get your loading technique down pat. Then look at a new barrel in a faster twist rate like a 1-10 or 1-9 or so. Another idea is to make the rifle a "switch barrel " rifle so you can use different cartridges . I have my .308 set up for 6.5x47 LAPUA and 6 BR at the moment with a .308 on the horizon. That .473 bolt face can be used with a lot of cartridges.

 

[liltank]

Thank you Tank.

Interesting. I know that the 1:12 slow twist stabilizes the heavier projectiles well and the 26" barrel length is short for long distance shooting... I'm going to get 30-06 performance out of my 308 which is not ideal because my 30-06 shoot 0.60MOA at 300m

Maybe remove the 26" billet and fit a 30" pipe on the Rem Mod 700 action.. Will be a sweet thing...

Currently running the 06 at 2650fps with 180gr Sierra Matchking HPBT's. They print nicely with an effective cartridge length of 70.12mm and 53.2gr Somchem S365... There are also no pressure signs and I'm running that nice velocity out of a 22" standard barrel with a 1:10" twist... Although the trajectory is not what most would desire, I'm very confident on subMOA performance all the way out to 500m. Haven't shot further than that with her yet... That also on a 1.5mm jump..

I hope my metric is less difficult for you to read than your imperial was for me

What would your opinion be on running 168's (I'm thinking Nosler CC's) out of the 308? Have you had any joy with the 160gr range? Hoping to run them at around 2800.

Thank you for your input.

gun) gun) gun)

168's and 155's are a sweet spot for the 1:12. I've had good luck with a multitude of bullets. The 168 A-max, and Nosler CC in both 175 and 168. I had some very good results using the 180smk, but the BC is crap. They shorted the boat tails on the 180's. I used the Berger 175OTM to good effect. The reason I stay with 175 or heavier is the BC's.

 

[liltank]

Tank... What's going on man? Been a long time since I seen you post. How's things?

Not a whole lot here. Dodging icy spots and driving through slush. I've been posting every once in awhile when I feel I can add something I post. Been a busy guy. Have a new DR650 I've been playing with. All of our local long range hunting ground has gone away. So shooting is a bit on the back burner. Just got out 2 weekends ago.

 

[M Rosslee]

M Rosslee,
The aluminum Chassis sounds like a good idea . I have two of the old Fred Sinclair aluminum v-block stocks that I run Remington actions in with NO bedding. One for Prone and on for FTR. The 26 inch tube should not be an issue unless its just a bad barrel. And that you wont know till you get it broke in and go to load tuning. If its accurate , use it to practice and working up loads for different bullets in the weight ranges that work with your twist rate (1-12). Our 155.5 FULL BORE, 168 VLD TARGET, are two that show your 1-12 twist rate to be OPTIMAL. Go to our TWIST RATE CALCULATOR to see what the altitude you will be shooting at can do for you with our bullets that have an optimal twist rate of 1-11. That will give you even more choices. For short ranges-100-200 yards look at our 150 grain FB TARGET bullet. Once you've confirmed that you like the rifle and get your loading technique down pat. Then look at a new barrel in a faster twist rate like a 1-10 or 1-9 or so. Another idea is to make the rifle a "switch barrel " rifle so you can use different cartridges . I have my .308 set up for 6.5x47 LAPUA and 6 BR at the moment with a .308 on the horizon. That .473 bolt face can be used with a lot of cartridges.

Phil,

What nodal velocities would one be looking at for a 26" barrel, 1:12" twist and 155.5gr VLD Fullbore ?

As stated, our propellants are so vastly different... I need to match suggested velocities to be able to comment.

Or shall I just do three phase load development? Climb the ladder, refine the load and jiggle the length?

It's always a stress in South Africa because Berger merchandise is limited in quantity and you need to commit at large quantity once your rifle appreciates and accepts a certain projectile...

I'm not sure if you know what Remington had in mind when developing the 26" heavy barrel, perhaps their intended bullet weight?

 

[M Rosslee]

168's and 155's are a sweet spot for the 1:12. I've had good luck with a multitude of bullets. The 168 A-max, and Nosler CC in both 175 and 168. I had some very good results using the 180smk, but the BC is crap. They shorted the boat tails on the 180's. I used the Berger 175OTM to good effect. The reason I stay with 175 or heavier is the BC's.

Tank, thank you.

What were your respective velocities with the 155's and 168's?

 

[liltank]

Tank, thank you.

What were your respective velocities with the 155's and 168's?

I never really tinkered with the 155's. I tried them in the early years of the rifle before I had a chronograph to shoot across. As far as the 168's, they were running right with the 175's. The bearing surface is as much or less than the 168 Nosler ballistic tip bullet. I generally find that a filled case with a perspective powder gives the best results. At least in my rifle. It really likes the top end loadings. With that said, that doesn't mean I was getting the fastest velocities. That was determined by the powder. As an example, I've loaded 44.5grn of Alliant reloader 15 and Varget and only achieved 2650-2680fps. These were stout loads. On the other end of the spectrum, 41.5grns of Alliant AR-Comp is giving me 2741fps avg. Load density of the AR is less than that of the 15 and Varget.

As far as nodes, I have been able to find nodes across the spectrum of velocities. My 18" barreled .308 shoots nice tight groups at 2470fps, where my 28' barrel finds joy in the 2620-2650 and 2720-2740fps ranges. I have found that when I push the above the 2800fps mark, it is more finicky and generally my worst accuracy. Plus I start to see spikes in velocity, higher SD's and ES's.

My loading technique is to pick one powder, one seating depth, one primer, and one bullet. I then load 10 groups of three rounds for a total of 30 shots. Example, my last loading was as follows:

RWS Brass, CCI BR2 primer, 175 Sierra TMK, AR-Comp set to 2.224" at the ogive.

41.0
41.3
41.5
41.7
42.0
42.3
42.5
42.7
43.0
43.5

This gave me two nodes of accuracy. The first being at 41.5 at 2741 with previous stated results in my first post. It produced a nice little clover shaped group that I look for.

The second was at 42.3, which gave a little better velocity, but the SD went from 4 with the first node to 11 in this load. The grouping wasn't any tighter, but was horizontal in shape. This tells me that it would be okay, but not ideal as the farther out I get, the stringing will only grow. In fact I actually had to bullet holes touching in this group, and one to the left of the first group. So I have chosen the first node as my load for this rifle, bullet combo.

 

[barefooter56]

M Rosslee,
The minimum velocity for a 155.5 grain bullet to be still super sonic at 1000 yards is 2950fps. So first you have to see If you can get to that velocity node that is at or above the 2950 threshold. I personally find my seating depth accuracy node first because of its affect on powder capacity and pressure. Then I work the load up to find the accuracy velocity node I need to get whatever job i need done with the bullet. In a Hunting rifle this MAY result in a cartridge that will not fit or cycle through the magazine. With a target rifle , since most are single shot , its not an issue. I have no idea what Remington had in mind when developing the rifle. If they did I would guess it would involve their loaded .308 ammunition. Since it seems you are not going in that direction it should not make any difference. Every rifle is a law unto itself. Its up to us to find the load/bullet it likes and to hone our skills to take the most advantage of our work. Break the rifle in as it is to see if you even like it before you do any modifications. If you can find loaded FEDERAL .308 MATCH ammunition loaded with the 168 grain bullets that would be great ( but expensive) break in ammunition that would also give you some indication of the rifles potential.

 

[M Rosslee]

I never really tinkered with the 155's. I tried them in the early years of the rifle before I had a chronograph to shoot across. As far as the 168's, they were running right with the 175's. The bearing surface is as much or less than the 168 Nosler ballistic tip bullet. I generally find that a filled case with a perspective powder gives the best results. At least in my rifle. It really likes the top end loadings. With that said, that doesn't mean I was getting the fastest velocities. That was determined by the powder. As an example, I've loaded 44.5grn of Alliant reloader 15 and Varget and only achieved 2650-2680fps. These were stout loads. On the other end of the spectrum, 41.5grns of Alliant AR-Comp is giving me 2741fps avg. Load density of the AR is less than that of the 15 and Varget.

As far as nodes, I have been able to find nodes across the spectrum of velocities. My 18" barreled .308 shoots nice tight groups at 2470fps, where my 28' barrel finds joy in the 2620-2650 and 2720-2740fps ranges. I have found that when I push the above the 2800fps mark, it is more finicky and generally my worst accuracy. Plus I start to see spikes in velocity, higher SD's and ES's.

My loading technique is to pick one powder, one seating depth, one primer, and one bullet. I then load 10 groups of three rounds for a total of 30 shots. Example, my last loading was as follows:

RWS Brass, CCI BR2 primer, 175 Sierra TMK, AR-Comp set to 2.224" at the ogive.

41.0
41.3
41.5
41.7
42.0
42.3
42.5
42.7
43.0
43.5

This gave me two nodes of accuracy. The first being at 41.5 at 2741 with previous stated results in my first post. It produced a nice little clover shaped group that I look for.

The second was at 42.3, which gave a little better velocity, but the SD went from 4 with the first node to 11 in this load. The grouping wasn't any tighter, but was horizontal in shape. This tells me that it would be okay, but not ideal as the farther out I get, the stringing will only grow. In fact I actually had to bullet holes touching in this group, and one to the left of the first group. So I have chosen the first node as my load for this rifle, bullet combo.

Again Tank, thank you.

At what distance did you test your loads?

My technique is similar.

I charge casings with individual loads in increasing increments from the minimum prescribed load to the maximum prescribed load and all of these are then seated with projectiles to the same total cartridge length.

So there are generally 20 rounds charged as set out hereunder, all the same total cartridge length with the bullets numbered to keep track of them:

1. 49gr
2. 49.3gr
3. 49.6gr
4. 49.9gr
5. 50.2gr
6. 50.5gr
7. 50.8gr
8. 51.1gr
....
20. eg 52.5gr

I then load 5 rounds right in between the minimum and maximum loads. I zero my rifle at 300m using these 5 shots - to make sure that my ladder doesn't start or end at the top or bottom of the target sheet (a large white poster with a 2"x2" solid dot in the middle)

Once my rifle's height has been adjusted to the dot's height at 300m with the middle load, we are ready to shoot the ladder.

I fire "Number 1" and for the purposes of the example, it's the 49gr load.

It will print a few inches lower than the target dot. I walk or drive to the target and mark the bullet hole with a "1". This provides my barrel ample opportunity to cool...

I then fire "Number 2" (49.3gr) and it prints above the hole marked "1". I repeat the above paragraph and mark that hole "2".

I repeat the above, and the successive shots continue to "climb the ladder" as the loads increase and the muzzle velocity increases.

After the last shot in the load group (Number 20), all of the shots are marked and were hopefully chronographed without "Err1"

I then examine the target. There should be a low-end and high-end node, where somewhere between shots 1-10 two, three of four bullets display and noticeably small variation in vertical sparsity from one another (they are close in vertical proximity and form a "group"). The height/vertical deviation is remarkably smaller than the other shots on the page. Let's say these were shots 2, 3 and 4 being 49.3gr, 49.6gr and 49.9gr respectively.

The same will happen on the higher end and let's say shots 16, 17 and 18 were 51.6gr, 51.9gr and 52.2gr respectively. You notice that they're close to one another. If there's no wind the horizontal variation will also be noticeably smaller.

These lower end and higher end groups identify velocity nodes...

Phase 2 would be refining either of these... I tend to ignore my low velocity nodes and only do my development around the abovementioned high-end groups...

I then load 4 rounds of numbers/charges 16, 17 and 18 at the same length as the first phase.

Thus there are 4 bullets loaded at 51.6gr, 4 bullets loaded at 51.9gr and 4 bullets loaded at 52.2gr...

I then test the grouping potential of each of the abovementioned 4 shot groups again at 300m - they should now be printing just above the zero dot. Here I tend to shoot at a 1" diameter target dot to keep my aim small and do the precise loads justice...

The shot groups should all be rather tight and there shouldn't be vast differences and a vernier may be required to choose the "tightest" group - if you're doing it right.

Once the tightest group has been identified - you have your charge. For this example, let's choose 52.2gr.

You now have a cartridge that performs well with a specific cartridge length and charge - but it could be tighter...

PHASE 3

Load 3 cartridges with 52.2gr and at the same length.

Load 3 cartridges with the same charge and lengthen the cartridge length by 0.5mm and another 3 by antoher 0.5mm but to a maximum of 0.5mm away from the lands/rifling.

Load 3 cartridges and shorten the cartridge length by 0.5mm

Load 3 cartridges and shorten the cartridge length by 1mm.




Fire these 3 shot groups (allowing the barrel to cool adequately in between shots) and take note of the best result.

Your nodal development is complete and the harmonic that best suits your rifle has been identified and noted.

Over time, when the barrel starts to take a pounding, you will only need to lengthen the cartridge length in minuscule increments to close the groups as the barrel "shoots out"... You can continue with this method until complete barrel smoothing (time to re-barrel bud).