115g VLD Berger for deer?

[brianwinzor]

LB, Thanks for the information. You did not mention what the dimensions of you tight neck chamber were, but I assume that it is about .288.

Achieving 3,650 fps with the Nosler 100 grain BT seems to be inline with 3,550 - 3,590 fps I am achieving from the 24 inch barrel with custom chamber and standard neck.

I note from my chronograph records in 1987 with my Sako Sporter 25/06 AI, that initially I was getting 3,600 - 3700 fps with the Nosler 100 grains SPBT, but later considered those loads excessive after the primer pockets started to loosen in 5 shots or less. The details of those results using Remington cases, and Federal 215 primer are:
3/10/87 (23C)
59.0 grains IMR 4831 - 3494 fps
60.0 grains IMR 4831 - 3654
61.0 grains IMR 4831 - 3687
63.0 grains WW 785 - 3556 fps
64.0 grains WW 785 - 3631 fps

6/12/87 (21C)
61.0 grains IMR 4831 - 3733 fps

8/1/88 (30C)
61.0 grains IMR 4831 - 3647 fps
64.0 grains WW 785 - 3618 fps

As I then considered those loads exceessive, I dropped my load of 61.0 grains IMR 4831 back to 60.5 grains, and achieved these.
1/6/88 (13C)
60.5 grain IMR 4831 - 3554 fps
1/7/88 (14C)
60.5 grains IMR 4831 - 3589 fps
31/7/88 (14C)
60.5 grains IMR 4831 - 3565 fps

For some reason my velocities with this load soared on 20/3/89, (23C) but the extreme spread was incredibly low.
Group 1 (7 shots)
3688
3685
3675
3674
3672
3672
3683
3675 (Ave) Group size 0.520 inches
16 ES

Group 2 (3 shots)
3675
3673
3688
3678 Ave Group size 0.156 inches at 100 yds.

Group 3 (5 shots)
3661
3683
3672
3672
3679
3673 Ave Group size 0.485 inches

Subsequently this load of 60.5 grains IMR 4831 seemed to deliver between 3550 and 3575 fps.

My only testing with the 90 grain Sierra HPBT, Remington cases and Federal 215 primer delivered:
56.0 grains WW 760 - 3550 fps
57.0 grains WW 760 - 3604 fps (Max)
62.5 grains IMR 4831 - 3608 fps
63.0 grains IMR 4831 - 3657 fps (comp load)
65.0 grains WW 785 - 3703 fps
65.5 grains WW 785 - 3757 fps (Max)

It certainly is interesting to compare and rationalise results. Regards, Brian.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Brain Winzor,

Rifles and rifle barrels are funny little critters, especially factory barrels.

You can take the same brand of rifle, same exact model and one will shoot several hundred fps faster then another.

My Ruger 25-06 has an odd personality. It will not shoot any other bullet well except the 100 gr Ballistic Tip, coated or uncoated. With that bullet it is hands down the most accurate factory sporter I have ever shot.

I did replace the trigger and restock the rifle with a nice laminated Fajen sporter stock which is pillar bedded but it was an honest 3/8" average, three shot group rifle.

It is long past its prime but will still average just under 3/4" and avery once in a while a 3/8" group will show up.

I would be hard pressed to rebarrel it and get it to shoot any barrel then it did in its prime.

About the velocity, in my experience, the Ruger M77MkII rifles tend to not show pressure signs nearly as quickly as a rifle that uses a plunger type ejector system in the bolt face.

You simply do not get the shiny mark on the case head like with a Rem or Sako of that design nearly as early.

I have tested this rifle to see how long brass will last and it is plenty for me to feel confident that I am within safe levels for the rifle.

I also have a Ruger M77 MkII in 7mm Rem Mag that drives the 140 gr Ballsitic Silvertip to an honest 3380 fps and gets +6 firings per case with no pressure signs, in fact the bolt opens like its on an empty chamber.

This is fast for a 7mm Rem Mag in this 24" barrel length.

It probalby has alot to do with the fact that these actions do not show pressure signs very early so loaders will load them a little higher.

To be honest, they rate the 7mm Wby at this velocity and the Rem Mag has a tick more capacity so it will easily reach the same velocities.

Admittedly, these rifles are quick but they have proven accurate and the brass has a good life so I see no need to worry.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[LB]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>LB,
Your rifle is a prime example of what a custom chamber will produce over a factory chamber.

I use 58.0 gr Rl-22 in my standard factory 25-06 loaded with the 100 gr B. Tip at a velocity of 3455 fps.

YOu use one grain less of the same powder with the same bullet weight, in a larger volume case and get 3650 fps.

Yes you have a 4.5" longer barrel but there is no replacement for a match quality tight throated chamber
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


* Yes, all true. One other thing, if I told you about my brass life, you wouldn't believe it.

 

[brianwinzor]

Fifty Driver, Interesting to hear your comment that Ruger M77 tend to show pressure signs later.

I have to admit that I never owned one, as my gunsmith brainwashed me in the late 1960's into the strength and design advantages of the Rem 700 action. He still believes that to be true for varmint type rifles, but uses Mauser controlled feed actions for fast and reliable feeding for his hunting rifles.

Getting 3380 fps from the 140 grain bullet out of the 7mm Rem Mag, certainly beats the hell out of what I got in my Remington 700 Classic (also 24 inch barrel)in the mid 1980's. I struggled to exceed 3200, but realise now that with the arrival of powders such as H1000, Reloader 25, Vihtavouri 170, etc I could probably do better now. My Chono records from 26/12/1986 (24C) using Remington Cases,Federal 215 primer, and Nosler 140 grain SPBT were:
65.0 grains IMR 4350 - 3057
66.0 grains IMR 4350 - 3115 (Max)
67.0 grains IMR 4831 - 3089
67.5 grains IMR 4831 - 3143 (Max)
70.0 grains WW 785 - 3166
71.0 grains WW 785 - 3261 (Max, or above)
71.0 grains IMR 7828 - 3152
72.0 grains IMR 7828 - 3190 (Max)

I try to achieve at least 6 - 10 shots per case, and reduce or change the load until I do.

I have fired about 1600 shots in the older of my two 25/06 AI, the throat has eroded about .250 inches, velocity is down almost 200 fps, but surprisingly it still gives reasonable accuracy (about 0.75moa).

I am currently pondering what to rebarrel it to, when my gunsmith has the time. The rifle will still be principally used for medium to larger game in Australia. I have been seriously thinking about going to the 280 Rem AI, as so many people seem to be getting 3200+ with the 140 grain bullet from this case, which as you can see from my records is better than what I got from my 7mm RM.

I have thought about the 7MM RUM, as I still have a healthy supply of H870, but am reluctant to go this route as it means opening up the boltface, and solving possible feeding, and magazine length issues.

I would welcome any suggestions that you may have. I wished that there was case with a 473 inch head, a capacity of about 80 - 85 grains,(ie similar to 7mm Rem Mag)and that would operate in the existing magazine.
Regards, Brian.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Brian,

My two most popular full length wildcats on the '06 case are the 6.5-06 AI and the 280 Rem AI.

THis is because they are all out of porportion in velocity and trajectory for what they really should be for their case size.

I have to admit I am partial to the 6.5-06 AI for deer size game. The 120 gr Ballistic Tip loaded to 3300 fps is a great combo for deer and with a B.C. in the .450 range, it shoots pretty flat as well.

I do not own a 280 AI but the ones I have built for customers flat out shoot and are quick.

The last one was a Sako in 280 Rem that the customer had me rechamber to the AI. I set the barrel back .350" to clean up the factory neck and he is now getting 3075 fps with the 160 gr Accubond.

I would not have believed it myself if I did not knwo the potential of the 280 AI.

140 gr bullets at +3200 fps are pretty comfortable, especially in a +24" barrel. This round really does not need a 26" pipe but it will run faster in one but about 50-60 fps.

Nice thing about the 6.5-06 AI is that youcan use the 100 gr Ballistic Tip loaded to about 100 to 150 fps over what the 25-06 AI will do.

You loose a little B.C., .390 vs .350 but over normal ranges this round will be used for the extra velocity provides more energy and flatter trajectory.

The 280 AI with a 120 gr Ballistic Tip is a fast round as well as it will run 3300-3350 fps from a 24" pipe.

I feel this round is better suited for 140-160 gr bullets though. IF you want lighter bullets, one should go down to a 6.5 or a .257" bore.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[LB]

I gotta share my opinion of the 280 Ackley. I think it is the best all around, big game cartridge available in the whole catagory, from 270 Winchester up to and including the 30'06, without considering belted magnums, for sake of argument.

I do not own one, but just give me any excuse, and it would be my first choice. A friend that I occasionally hunt with does own one, and I'm completely sold.

Hard to go wrong with that puppy.

Good hunting. LB

 

[Fiftydriver]

Brian & LB,

While I agree with LB that the AI rounds can tend to feed smoother with a little feed rail smoothing, I have yet to have a problem with the rifles I have built that were originally chambered for a member of the '06 family.

What I have found is that most of the "06 AI rounds of 6.5mm and smaller tend to be a little more sticky when feeding. Rounds above the 6.5mm tend to be much smoother feeding without adjustments to the rails.

Here is why in my opinion. The 6.5mm and smaller rounds have a substantial shoulder hanging out to hang up on anything they can and a relatively short, small diameter bullet to guide them into the bore. This tends to allow the shoulder to contact things before or just as the bullet does such as teh feed ramp and the beginnings of the chamber when feeding.

THe larger AI rounds like the 280 you refer to, generally have more bullet length in front of the case which is also larger in diameter. This allows the bullet to hig the feed ramp and chamber sooner and usually before the sharp shoulder does.

What this does is make the shoulder follow the bullet instead of the bullet following the shoulder.

All in all the '06 AI family of rounds feed pretty well. Anything with a 40 degree shoulder is going to feel a little sticky on feeding, just the nature of the beast.

Now the short action AI rounds can be a real pain in the rear, like the 22-250 AI and 250 AI. They can really play hell trying to get them to feed smoothly and sometimes they never will.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[LB]

Fifty~ can't dispute, in fact, I agree with your take on the subject, has a lot of merit. I'm not really backpeddaling, because I shoot or have used most of the examples you named, but don't have any personal experience with the 280AI. It sure makes sense to me, though.

And, then again, you never know without trying. I have had mostly trouble with feeding the second and fourth rounds, but my experience is limited.

Good hunting. LB

 

[brianwinzor]

LB and Fifty Driver, Thank you for your suggestions. You have confirmed my original thoughts of replacing the worn out barrel on the second of my 25/06AI's, and rebarrelling to 280 Rem AI.

If I could get the 140 grain bullet to shoot accurately at around 3200 fps, I am sure it will handle the medium game here in Australia.

The 25/06AI seems to feed well from the Sako magazine, so it is hard to imagine that the 280 AI will be any different. Regards, Brian.

 

[LB]

You are bringing up a whole new aspect. Generally, an Ackley will need attention to the feed rails, in order to chamber smoothly, from either side of the magazine.

But, with all the current trend towards short, fat cartridges; I still believe that most bolt guns cycle cartridges based on the 30'06, smoother and better.

Good luck with your choice. LB