Explain This Please

bozoben said:

View attachment 303682This is an antelope that I shot at the other day. The shot was 800 yards on the button. I am shooting a 338 rum pushing 300 grain Berger EH's. This is the first antelope I have shot at with this setup. I was expecting different results to say the least.

I made the shot and he took off. Initially I thought I missed. After reviewing the video I realized I put a pretty decent hit on him. He ran over the back side of the ridge so I figured he would be toast just out of sight. I walked over to retrieve him and as I crested the ridge he was on, I saw him on the next ridge back, over 1k yards away, with the same 3 does. I got a look at the exit side and there was a good stream of blood all down his Left side to confirm the hit and placement. He went up and over and I figured I would leave him for the night.

The next morning at daylight i was back with a buddy to recover him, as I was sure he would be toast. After a bit of hiking around sure enough there he was, running down a ridge a couple hundred yards away. Into a draw and up and over another ridge. Then up and over another. I could see blood stains all down his entry side which confirmed he was the same one.
I did not get an opportunity for another shot. I continued hiking in the direction he went and hiked and glasses for the next couple hours with no luck finding him. At that point he was alive and appeared to be doing just fine. Neither one of us were able to locate him again.

I have attached a link to a video as well as a screenshot of the impact frame.



From the more experienced guys, whats the consensus here? Too far back? Too high? Bullet did not perform properly? Antelope did not have enough mass to instigate terminal performance? Ex-con goat who was just downright tough as nails?

I must say I was expecting more of a bang flop type of scenario on an antelope with this rifle.

I would like to know where I went wrong.

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Well the video shows a hit above his gut into the near back loins area, yet he ran away which should have been impossible with an expanding bullet. I'd say your Calibre is better suited for much larger game within 300 yards, antelope are easily taken with lighter high velocity cartridges like .243 Win 80gr, or .270 Rem 120gr or even a lighter 150gr .30-06.

Looks like your bullet did not expand, otherwise it would have been a bang flop.

In my humble opinion.

Cheers Mate.

40 years ago I bought a M77 25-06 and topped it with a Burris 3-9 RAC scope using Remington 120 gr Core-Lokt ammo. I hit an antelope that stood for about 2 seconds then he sat back on his haunches and flopped over. Easy, so I thought. I slung the rifle over my shoulder and started up the hill to recover him. It was on an alluvial fan on the side of Mt Borah in Idaho. I had gone about 100 yards when the animal stood up and started walking in the direction of the herd that had run off! I put the rifle scope on him and could see blood behind his front leg on the white hair, lung shot. I'm thinking "that's a dead animal walking" so I took an angled approach to catch up to him. That "dead" antelope was going to walk me into the ground. I took a kneeling position and put one through his neck and he folded. When I cleaned him out I discovered that the bullet had passed clean through his lungs without expanding. I found the blood spot on the ground where he first fell and, walking straight downhill stretching my legs and counting every step, I counted 630 paces, I'm six feet tall. Don't know the exact yardage but it became clear that the bullet did not have enough velocity to expand and do its job. Antelope are tough critters.
The one in question in this thread was hit way too high. As has been noted, we need to know how much energy is required for the projectile to be effective and the range limitation for them. Oh, and shot placement is critical. This one wasn't a good shot.

bozoben said:

This was where the bullet impacted the animal. This to me definitely looks like it's below the spine.

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That's a good point on the vaccume theory. Although I think with the direction the hair was flying at least to me, indicates that is was kinda "chopped". But heck who knows.. I've seen that video you're referring to, crazy huh.. lol

Coyote Shadow Tracker said:

Yep said that from the beginning posts.
Could have just touched the back of the goat or:
That bullet mass traveling at the velocity could actually 'Suck" the hair and skin off when it passed. The bullet didn't need to hit as long as it was close enough. I saw a vide of a person shooting a 50BMG culling does. He shot and completely missed the does head, but the bullet mass+ velocity created a vacuum and "Sucked" the eyeballs out of the does head as it passe

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sp6x6 said:

Some of these threads crack me up,800 to far for a antelope BS.This LR I shot many goats well past 500 and with 300 OTM.For wind purposes.I try and lung them.My son more just nail em kind of guy,this was in the 800 range and we had a lazer go dead,during,300 otm Side note ,friend of mine had his goat on NForce site for years,picture, 1000+ yrds.HE and his circle all shot goats at that range.

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Nice goat. Why is he so angry? And that's a dead goat for sure but also some blood shot back straps. Far from a perfect shot.

bozoben said:

View attachment 303682This is an antelope that I shot at the other day. The shot was 800 yards on the button. I am shooting a 338 rum pushing 300 grain Berger EH's. This is the first antelope I have shot at with this setup. I was expecting different results to say the least.

I made the shot and he took off. Initially I thought I missed. After reviewing the video I realized I put a pretty decent hit on him. He ran over the back side of the ridge so I figured he would be toast just out of sight. I walked over to retrieve him and as I crested the ridge he was on, I saw him on the next ridge back, over 1k yards away, with the same 3 does. I got a look at the exit side and there was a good stream of blood all down his Left side to confirm the hit and placement. He went up and over and I figured I would leave him for the night.

The next morning at daylight i was back with a buddy to recover him, as I was sure he would be toast. After a bit of hiking around sure enough there he was, running down a ridge a couple hundred yards away. Into a draw and up and over another ridge. Then up and over another. I could see blood stains all down his entry side which confirmed he was the same one.
I did not get an opportunity for another shot. I continued hiking in the direction he went and hiked and glasses for the next couple hours with no luck finding him. At that point he was alive and appeared to be doing just fine. Neither one of us were able to locate him again.

I have attached a link to a video as well as a screenshot of the impact frame.



From the more experienced guys, whats the consensus here? Too far back? Too high? Bullet did not perform properly? Antelope did not have enough mass to instigate terminal performance? Ex-con goat who was just downright tough as nails?

I must say I was expecting more of a bang flop type of scenario on an antelope with this rifle.

I would like to know where I went wrong.

Click to expand...

rifle to small!! get you a fifty cal and try it again!!!!

Raudy,not me my son shot that goat that is a 6 yr qualified expert rifle and pistol and been threw the military SWAT training program.He has thousands of rounds under him and over 50 big animals at age 26.We had a lazer range problem,as I was spotting for him.I posted to show that a 338 works and we have taken many goats at long range,with said.As seen in many threads,not everything goes perfect,but if you can pull it together in the end its better for all

Well, lots of thoughts. First of all, great video and awesome vapor trail. I replayed it several times on a large monitor.

I believe the bullet hit the antelope very high and too far back. The vital zone on an antelope is roughly the size of a rockchuck and they're DARN hard to hit at 800 yards. Sure, it's doable, and I've done it plenty of times on steel and varmints, but hunting conditions aren't usually so controlled. My personal best on antelope is 620 yards and that's at the edge of what I care to try. Elevation, temperature, wind, wind, wind, and wind all become important at that range. Even an error in range of a few yards or shot angle can make a difference.

As for the "no man's land" idea..... well, I'm a surgeon, and I've spent plenty of time wandering around the insides of ungulates. I've pondered this question plenty of times myself and I've studied the anatomy in this area. I've seen similar unexplainable things, especially when talking about archery, but there is NO way a bullet (or arrow) can miss below the spine and not enter at least a part of the thoracic cavity. I suspect some animals manage to live on a single lung, but I think it's pretty rare, at least for long-term survival. The lower, more central parts of the lungs are much more vascular and much more susceptible to rapid cardiopulmonary collapse.

Hunt long enough and you'll not recover an animal. It sucks. Hopefully some of them recover and live, but bullet wounds are nasty and infections don't usually get rolling for a few days.

Look at the anatomy of the spine sometimes. There's a surprisingly large area above the spine and the top of the back. There are some wispy spinous process bones in this area, but no spinal cord, and no vertebral bodies. High-velocity wounds in this area often cause a cord concussion and a recovered animal (and the loss of the best meat), but low-velocity wounds or very superficial wounds (which I think this was) don't impart enough energy to knock out the spinal cord.

YMMV. Lots of animals (and people) survive wounds they shouldn't and sometimes seemingly simple injuries kill stuff. Nothing in terminal ballistics is 100%.

not wanting to start something and i know a lot of people swear by them. ButI I've had several bad experiences with the berger hunting
bullets. they are the most accurate bullets I've ever shot. but I want use them for hunting.

last year a bull took a hit with a 338 lapua at over 500 yds and dropped immediately. But it got up just as fast. The hit was just below the spine and just above the shoulder blade. An inch or two up or down would have anchored that bull. We were fortunate that another opportunity at that bull was granted 3/4 of a mile away and that shot anchored it. I'm not sure if bullet design would have helped, but maybe one of those bullets designed to shed petals in random directions may have helped. But maybe not. In the case of this antelope, I really think the shot was a little high. I know animals can bleed a substantial amount and still recover. I arrowed a P&Y mule deer in alberta about 20 years ago from 53 yards and the animal took a couple of steps before the arrow arrived. The hit was in the right rear haunch. When the guides arrived, I explained the hit so we began tracking the buck. About every 30 to 40 ft, we found a blood puddle the side of a dinner plate and after 1/4 of a mile the guides were expecting to find a dead animal at any moment. Two miles later the animal was sill alive and escaped to private land where we could not follow. In fact that animal lived another two years until another archer took him cleanly. The guides shared a video of that buck with me a year after I wounded it.

Guys correct me if I'm wrong but can't we see the bullet strike here about an inch or so above where the white meets the tan

Think you found the failure point for that bullet on a soft tissue hit. Give yorke-1 a PM here on this site and see if he has done any testing. How fast was the bullet going at impact?

sp6x6 said:

Raudy,not me my son shot that goat that is a 6 yr qualified expert rifle and pistol and been threw the military SWAT training program.He has thousands of rounds under him and over 50 big animals at age 26.We had a lazer range problem,as I was spotting for him.I posted to show that a 338 works and we have taken many goats at long range,with said.As seen in many threads,not everything goes perfect,but if you can pull it together in the end its better for all

Click to expand...

Agreed!

bozoben said:

View attachment 303682This is an antelope that I shot at the other day. The shot was 800 yards on the button. I am shooting a 338 rum pushing 300 grain Berger EH's. This is the first antelope I have shot at with this setup. I was expecting different results to say the least.

I made the shot and he took off. Initially I thought I missed. After reviewing the video I realized I put a pretty decent hit on him. He ran over the back side of the ridge so I figured he would be toast just out of sight. I walked over to retrieve him and as I crested the ridge he was on, I saw him on the next ridge back, over 1k yards away, with the same 3 does. I got a look at the exit side and there was a good stream of blood all down his Left side to confirm the hit and placement. He went up and over and I figured I would leave him for the night.

The next morning at daylight i was back with a buddy to recover him, as I was sure he would be toast. After a bit of hiking around sure enough there he was, running down a ridge a couple hundred yards away. Into a draw and up and over another ridge. Then up and over another. I could see blood stains all down his entry side which confirmed he was the same one.
I did not get an opportunity for another shot. I continued hiking in the direction he went and hiked and glasses for the next couple hours with no luck finding him. At that point he was alive and appeared to be doing just fine. Neither one of us were able to locate him again.

I have attached a link to a video as well as a screenshot of the impact frame.



From the more experienced guys, whats the consensus here? Too far back? Too high? Bullet did not perform properly? Antelope did not have enough mass to instigate terminal performance? Ex-con goat who was just downright tough as nails?

I must say I was expecting more of a bang flop type of scenario on an antelope with this rifle.

I would like to know where I went wrong.

Click to expand...

You hit high in no mans land. If that big bullet did not mushroom but penciled through you just made a hole through the ribs and missed the heart lung. It obviously did not hit the spine otherwise the animal would have been anchored right there, maybe still alive but broken down. Remember, the bullet is falling in an arch so it likely hit high and arched under the spine but above the vitals. Add if the bullet did not shotgun but hammering through in 1 piece and you have this result. I shot an Antelope in Wyoming a few years ago with a similar result using archery. The arrow hit about 4 inches below the spine and made a hole on both sides but totally missed the lungs. Luckily it was during rifle season and we were able to eventually dispatch it with a rifle. Also, I have seen Antelope walking around with arrows sticking through them in about the same location. Fletch out one side broadhead out the other Walking around eating like nothing was wrong. What learned from my Antelope archery incident was their heart/lung area is very tight to their breastbone like African Antelope.

Thats what some are saying and others not.It looked high to me but ,like a clip with tuff of hair flying.Some said that mark was there.I do not have good enough few on my computer to tell that.Based on shooting a 338 for 38 years I cant imagine a goat getting away with the shot there?But I never had a 300 pencil.Ive blown huge holes in all game with mine,antelope,deer,elk,moose.I also shot elk rear leg bones at 300 yrds on the knuckle with 300 OTM,in my own test,right after butching,and blew the whole thing in a foot hole threw 1/2 inch OSB.Multiple shots I grenaded the bone.Shot each end