Giving out Load Advice caution!

Well said!

cohunt said:

No offense, can you provide any documentation that the "well known store in cali" was shut down from a reloading lawsuit? Or was it just rumors? Never heard of anyone getting sued for reloading data, especially an online forum or member. People should think twice about reloading over book loads, but we need to remember that book loads are mild today compared to 30+years ago.
Ultimately the person reloading holds the responsibility of their own safety
The real problem is the "Instant gratification attitude " of the forum community in general-- when someone lists a load, you can use the load data as a suggestion and work up to it (just like all the reloading books say-- but people dont read instructions or books any more)
If you live your life in fear of possible lawsuits, youd never be able to do anything or go anywhere

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I once got data off a forum to fireform some brass COW method with Unique. Let's just say I needed a new bolt, safety glasses and bottom metal afterwards!!!!! Weather I misunderstood the info I read or malicious info was posted I will never know. Only person to blame is me, is how I see it anyhow. Anyone that chooses to shoot or reload must accept the fact that there is an explosion happening between their hands and it is they're decision to make it happen. Hopefully everyone on this site sees it the same way!! I've gotten several load data request responses and even tho they looked legitimate I backed them down a few grains and proceeded to find my high pressure mark and reverse from there!

codyadams said:

Ya, it of course isn't a blanket assessment, I was just blown away at how ridiculously diluted they make the 7 mag, and don't fully understand why they would, they even show it being 10,000 psi or so under max.....I just find it interesting.

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There are many things that enter into the pressure equasion. Things that most people don't even have the faintest thought about. Things that matter with powders is not only the amount of powder or how fast or slow it is. To name a few things that change how powder burns....one is column length, two is column diameter. Just because XYZ powder works in a long more slender cartridge, doesn't mean it will work in a short fat cartridge or vice versa. If you look at burn rate charts, it says RELATIVE burn rates. The burn rate depends on what cartridge and what weight bullet and can change positions on the chart with other powders depending on the cartridge being loaded. All of those things matter. Some powders are pefectly safe in the correct amounts and column size.....but go over that amount even by a slight amount and it can cause a HUGE pressure spike. That is why companies that manufacture powders spend big bucks in R&D and post data. And if you don't think what I'm saying is correct, call Hodgdon and talk to one of their techs.

cohunt said:

No offense, can you provide any documentation that the "well known store in cali" was shut down from a reloading lawsuit? Or was it just rumors? Never heard of anyone getting sued for reloading data, especially an online forum or member. People should think twice about reloading over book loads, but we need to remember that book loads are mild today compared to 30+years ago.
Ultimately the person reloading holds the responsibility of their own safety
The real problem is the "Instant gratification attitude " of the forum community in general-- when someone lists a load, you can use the load data as a suggestion and work up to it (just like all the reloading books say-- but people dont read instructions or books any more)
If you live your life in fear of possible lawsuits, youd never be able to do anything or go anywhere

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While I agree with the conclusions reached here, re using load data as information in working up one's own load(s), a gun DEALER, is considered legally as "someone in the business", and legal implications follow. In the same way that a doctor (I know this well), or a lawyer (got this covered too) can be sued for information given out, a GUN DEALER is 'in the business' and would be liable in most ANY jurisdiction for giving "PROFESSIONAL ADVISE".......
In contrast, on a forum, we hopefully "share" information from our varied backgrounds and experiences with each other, a far cry from consulting someone as an expert with the EXPECTATION that one can reasonably rely on that "expertise". William Cappps, MD, JD

When I asked this morning the only thing I was looking for for was suggestions on different powder and bullet combinations that work well together not exact loads. Didn't want to start a **** storm

codyadams said:

Good topic. Anytime I post data, I add all the details and also add in the generic warning that this is my data for my rifle, yours may vary, work up to it, etc. What people do with it is on them.

A specific instance of loads being diluted in recent times - look at an old manual for data on the 7mm rem mag, then look at new data, with same or similar bullets, and same powder. A lot of new data essentially puts the 7mm rem mag at the same or very similar performance level as industry standard for a 7mm-08 when it was commercialized, which is simply not the case. Often times if you look, they are listing a "max load" with 52,000 PSI or less, in a 60,000 PSI cartridge, where as older data shows much higher velocity, and pressures around 59k. Now, the new powders are all listed right at or near 60,000 PSI, because they want to show how much "better" these new powders are. Not sure of other cartridges, but I know specifically the 7mm rem mag has been picked on. You just have to read into the data and pick out what is useful.

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I agree I use old manuals and compare them to new manuals for a new cartridge I'm toying with then I work loads up 1 grain at a time to find my max handload and then look for accuracy!

I've been a farmer, dishwasher, carpenter, plumber, heavy equipment operator, machinist, welder, salesman,,, and had a few other jobs? Never been a propellants, explosives, scientist - engineer? I'll rely on those that have and stick to the books! Know your limits!

I agree that you need to be careful with shared load data. As an example I shoot the 200 Berger in my FTR 308 Win for competition. I load it with 44.3 gr of Varget to get ~2650 FPS. If you look in the books that is way beyond the recommended maximum load. What is not stated in that load is that I throat the chamber very long providing more case capacity not just for more powder, but for reducing the pressures. If someone were to try this load in a standard chamber, OMG. SO DO NOT LOAD YOUR HUNTING RIFLE USING THIS CHARGE!

cohunt said:

No offense, can you provide any documentation that the "well known store in cali" was shut down from a reloading lawsuit? Or was it just rumors? Never heard of anyone getting sued for reloading data, especially an online forum or member. People should think twice about reloading over book loads, but we need to remember that book loads are mild today compared to 30+years ago.
Ultimately the person reloading holds the responsibility of their own safety
The real problem is the "Instant gratification attitude " of the forum community in general-- when someone lists a load, you can use the load data as a suggestion and work up to it (just like all the reloading books say-- but people dont read instructions or books any more)
If you live your life in fear of possible lawsuits, youd never be able to do anything or go anywhere

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I know of one incident in Rhode Island where there was a catastrophic failure due to reloads on a range where a bystander received serious brain damage due to a reload that "went wild"!! As a result the club was shut down and the club's members were sued in a major lawsuit. I realize that this is not quite the same as giving someone load data in a store or in a forum, however..............I strongly suggest taking RANDY TIDWELL's point quite seriously. I've been following a thread on this forum about loads and powder suggestions for the 6.5-06 because presently I have a rifle out for a build in that cartridge. Reading the thread I am interested in the results that the OP is posting and.....really not the load data because I know that I will start below SAAMI suggestions for this load and make my own up when I get the rifle. When I read some of the posts on here I shudder, there are too many extraneous variables in reloading to take a load from a posting in a forum. Point well taken Randy, we do live in a litigious society where "we" do have to think about lawsuits.

Haven't read this entire post, but without doing so I can imagine there is arguing on both sides. I am amazed at the speeds some claim to be getting out of ammo these days with the same combinations many of use. These speeds are 100-250 fps faster. Makes me cringe. Often, my combo won't allow me to run book max. Interestingly, my velocities are generally close to the book max but at much lower charge weights. Proceed with caution is how I handle my reloads any more.

I have a spreadsheet where I keep all load data from my testing, reloading manuals and from the internet. I have a column noting where I got the data. Once you see it all in one place you can figure out fairly quickly what loads to stay away from.

All due respect, teaching California mentality to be scared of the law suit, is not the correct approach. Your own admission of changing powder level from manufacturing recommended levels makes me wonder why it's ok for you to change things but not others.
I do agree error to the side of safety but I'm not a fan of your thought process.
I hope this is understood in the world of free thinkers and a user of uncommon sense.

fiftybmg said:

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Rifles are not made any stronger today than they were made 120 years ago. The same steel is still being used, except the designs are simplified to save manufacturing costs.

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I agree with what you said in your post, except for this. Modern steel (at least that used by gunmakers) is better and more uniform due to better metallurgy. Modern designs are in many cases inherently stronger, especially when compared to older mass-produced military rifles. Modern manufacturers have tools and technology to catch more unseen flaws, such as tiny cracks or crystals. None of which means it is wise to exceed published load data or just use a load posted by some guy on the Internet.

I agree in my loading data I always stay a grain under the Loading Manuals- Having said that no one should start a load with the max in a loading manual.. If the loading manual is 30 years old do not use it. Powders have changed.. and example my old 40 yer old manual says in a 6.5/06 with a 140 bullet 54 grs of 4350. I use to use that , but todays 4350 50 grains are max. I even tried 54 gr of 22 which is the same as the old 4831 in burn rate and I had to drop to 52 gr.. which the old manual used 57 gr of 4831; so you see why old manuals are too too hot..