They're back at it on RS. .223/5.56 using the 69 gr TMK on game!

[xsn10s]

If you launched that same 77TMK from a 22-250 or a 22 Creed; would you expect better or worse terminal performance on whitetails?

Here's a pic with a close in shot from then 22 CM and 77 gr TMK. The OP stated he'll use .223 for close in shots. The terminal pics look like my 30-06 loaded with 180 Speer Magtip on a pig at 50 yards. https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/the-22-creedmoor-thread.299646/page-20#post-3351042

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Here's a pic with a close in shot from then 22 CM and 77 gr TMK. The OP stated he'll use .223 for close in shots. The terminal pics look like my 30-06 loaded with 180 Speer Magtip on a pig at 50 yards. https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/the-22-creedmoor-thread.299646/page-20#post-3351042

Surprised that the bullet made it to the off-side.
Equally surprised that the deer got 50yrs with that level of trauma.

The 77TMK shoots well in my Savage 112BVSS but the loaded cartridges are too long to close the top on the plastic ammo box. Went back to the non-tipped version. LOL

 

[Petey308]

Something like a small caliber 69 or 77gr .224" bullet won't transfer as much energy into the CNS to help drop the animal on the spot. They tend to need to just bleed out to die. Thats not always the case though. Placed right into the brachial plexus of nerves with an impact velocity around 2200fps or more will still drop them more times than not. I've dropped a few larger bucks with the 77gr TMK just like that. Chests shots are most reliable.

 

[Petey308]

That's something that should be studied. How much does bullet diameter make up for placement errors? How much does velocity, energy?

My guess on the width part is it'll make up for the error roughly as much as the larger diameter projectile creates a larger permanent wound cavity, which is to say for the most part 1.5-3x bullet diameter, so.. an inch at most.

To elaborate a bit more, where caliber size can help- with bullet construction type equal- is having more energy to transfer to the CNS and more material to reach out a bit wider and deeper.

A 195gr TMK from a 308 at 2600fps MV compared to a 77gr TMK from a 223 at 2600fps MV is a good example. Both bullets are constructed the same, for all intents and purposes. They'll both behave very similarly in regards to how they start expanding and shedding weight and transferring energy via hydraulic force and loss of forward momentum.

So let's compare the ballistics of the two at 250 yards. The 195gr TMK, having more mass and a higher BC, will be at 2247fps and have 2186ft-lbs of energy to work with (doesn't mean all that transfers to the animal). The 77gr TMK will be at 2097fps with 752ft-lbs of energy to work with. Even at more equal impact velocities (2240fps), the 77gr TMK still only has around 860ft-lbs to work with.

The TMK is very efficient at transferring the energy it has into the animal, and with far less mass, the 77gr would be more likely to not exit and transfer all 752 or 860 foot pounds compared to the 195gr which is more likely to exit from a whitetail and take some of that energy with it. It's still going to transfer more than the 77gr though in most scenarios. It also has more material and will be ultimately more forgiving to shot placement errors and produce wider wounding most times.

You'll also have more range ability from that 195gr TMK load as well due to the higher BC and more retained velocity and energy as a result. The overall result of either at like 100 yards or so would be hard to discern between. As you stretch out the distance with the 77gr TMK load, you'll see less and less reliability and consistency to the animal dropping or dropping quickly. With less energy being dumped at once, you're relying more on rapid blood loss vs shutting down the CNS while it bleeds out. It'll also be less forgiving to shot placement errors and the little bullet can end up more off your mark at further distances compared to the higher BC 195gr TMK.

Hopefully I'm making sense and you're getting the point here lol. Keep in mind too this is comparing like bullets. If you compare the 77gr bullet to a bonded or copper bullet even, or especially, of a larger caliber, things change a lot in how the compare and contrast.

 

[highdrum]

I have no doubt that a perfectly placed .223 will kill a whitetail,but I would dig deeper into the gun safe. We owe it to our prey to give them a quick and painless ending.

So that means, all archery hunters should quit hunting? We owe them a quick and painless death, right? Pretty sure that 69tmk will cause much more internal vital trauma than a 600gr arrow/broadhead moving at 225fps impact.

 

[Chrsm]

I have no doubt that a perfectly placed .223 will kill a whitetail,but I would dig deeper into the gun safe. We owe it to our prey to give them a quick and painless ending.

Wow
There's to many people out there that never seen a 223 at work. They just assume because it's a 22 it won't hit like thunder.
Plus
Cheaper to shoot and practice
Knowing its limitations, bullet and range capabilities is key! Yes it is no 308..........
But it can put them in the dirt just as fast as any!

 

[BigNate]

Energy numbers don't mean much. It's the wound channel that's important. The 77gr TMK produces a terrific wound channel.
If you are doubting it's performance you really need to take the time to read through the linked thread. It will be quite informative I promise.

 

[highdrum]

Energy numbers don't mean much. It's the wound channel that's important. The 77gr TMK produces a terrific wound channel.
If you are doubting it's performance you really need to take the time to read through the linked thread. It will be quite informative I promise.

Exactly, I've had exits wounds off side the size of a baseball from the 77tmk. 75eldm exits at 500y around 2". A good tipped 22 match bullets does work! 88eldm has great bc as well, but needs some case capacity to get the velocity to my desired 3100 or so. I just built a 22" 22gt to run 77-88gr bullets with from 3000-3200fps. Shooting great thus far with 80 eldm in the break in load at 3170fps

 

[Petey308]

Energy numbers don't mean much. It's the wound channel that's important. The 77gr TMK produces a terrific wound channel.
If you are doubting it's performance you really need to take the time to read through the linked thread. It will be quite informative I promise.

I haven't read it yet, but I don't doubt it supports how well it works. I already have first had experience myself.

And yes, energy isn't everything. It helps for sure anchor animals, but rapid blood loss will always be the list reliable killer, and the little .224" bullets even from a 223 produce rapid blood loss quite well with good bullets.

I've single loaded the 75gr AMAX in years past with great success too. Now the 73gr ELDM will mag load and works very well too. I've even seen several deer dropped quick with the ole 55gr VMAX. I'm not suggesting that one is reliable and will always work well lol.

Also fellas, I'll give you a secret if you're unaware, Creedmoor Sports sells the 77gr TMK in 50" packs for like $142, under the American Bullet Company label. These are firsts, made by Sierra, just with a different label. That makes the 77gr TMK very affordable to shoot. It's a great coyote and varmint round too.

 

[xsn10s]

I think energy still plays a part. But I don't think some of the negative commenters have taken a good look at the terminal photos on RS's thread. They really remind me of some of the terminal results I had with my 30-06 with various traditional premium hunting bullets. Velocity, expansion, crushing, frangible projectiles all cause trauma. It's a blend of characteristics that cause trauma. I'm taking a good look at the trauma.

 

[Petey308]

I think energy still plays a part. But I don't think some of the negative commenters have taken a good look at the terminal photos on RS's thread. They really remind me of some of the terminal results I had with my 30-06 with various traditional premium hunting bullets. Velocity, expansion, crushing, frangible projectiles all cause trauma. It's a blend of characteristics that cause trauma. I'm taking a good look at the trauma.

Yep, it plays a part but the bullet opening up well, coming apart, and slicing and producing opposing force as it does it is the main thing. A bonded bullet or just tougher constructed bullet that holds together more simply won't produce the same results.

It's about how well a bullet is at putting what energy it has to work. Not all bullets are efficient at that. Bullets like the TMK are very efficient at it and even with only hundreds of foot pounds available, it still produces results some larger and faster bullets can't do.

 

[Critter Picker]

Wow
There's to many people out there that never seen a 223 at work. They just assume because it's a 22 it won't hit like thunder.
Plus
Cheaper to shoot and practice
Knowing its limitations, bullet and range capabilities is key! Yes it is no 308..........
But it can put them in the dirt just as fast as any!

There's probably been more deer killed with a .22 lr than most other calibers. It still doesn't make it my go to weapon for deer. I am a bowhunter and that is my go to weapon for all game. I've shot several deer with the bow that jumped at the shot , then went right back to feeding and after a couple seconds just dropped. That tells me it's painless. If it hurt them they would have ran.

 

[del2les]

I have no doubt that a perfectly placed .223 will kill a whitetail,but I would dig deeper into the gun safe. We owe it to our prey to give them a quick and painless ending.

I do understand your statement, but after having seen decades of hunters making poorly placed shots with everything from 243's, up through heavy magnums, 444's, 45-70's and 12 gauge slugs, often, that isn't the case. Even with very good hits with larger calibers, game can run a distance before expiring, and with larger game, they can absorb multiple hits. Elk shoulders have done some unexpected things to large bullets, and African game can also.

Personally, the few people I find like myself willing to purposefully hunt with a 224 caliber tend to make better decisions in shot placement, bullet selection, etc. I find the practice very similar to my handgun hunting in that respect.

 

[Petey308]

I'll try to get them cut apart tonight if I can. It'll deoend on how much time I have. We're traveling for Thanksgiving and I'm not sure if we're leaving tonight or tomorrow lol. It shouldn't take too long to do but my wife might have other plans for my time lol.

In the meantime, here's a couple ballistic charts to compare them. I used 2600fps for the 77gr and 2700fps for the 69gr. Those are typical 223 speeds, but obviously those could vary. The intent here is just to compare velocities at given distances and the energy they have to work with at a given distance.

Both will still expand pretty well to at least 1600fps but with adequate resistance upon impact, they'll still do well down to even 1400fps. At those low velocities though, you're relying mostly on blood loss and you'll see the animal typically run further before collapsing.