Discussion about bullets, tumbling and expanding
- Thread starter coldboremiracle
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memtbAgreed. Just because you can kill a deer with a 22 short doesn't mean you should. And I have done that. I've seen many deer killed that were hit with 1 number 1 buckshot. All 40 grains of it. Shoot enough gun to do the job when conditions and angles are not optimal..
On the flip side, there is no amount of gun or caliber that will make up for poor shooting. Outside of a cannon anyway. And there are a lot of people that don't shoot the larger calibers nearly as well as they shoot more manageable options.
Shoot enough gun, more if you can handle it. And practice enough to be proficient with whatever you choose.
I do prefer a bullet that performs as expecited on impact. If you read Nathan Fosters studies of bullets action after impact it can be an eye opener. Anything below impact velocity of 2700fps is far less likely to tumble upon impact.
I tend to prefer large for caliber fragmenting projectiles that dump a lot of energy at impact, make a big hole, yet still have enough umph left over to give me an exit. If the jacket separates and I still get that exit I could care less. or if it looks like a perfect mushroom that's fine too. I also want enough bullet that I don't have to wait on the perfect angle. I prefer cup and core bonded or unbonded. I'm not into copper or mono's at all. But that's just me.
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Highbrass Shooter
Active Member
Yessir I test my bullets at extreme close range at max velocity just see if they hold up. I also load for maximum performance out of my rifles, safe no pressure on brass but max velocity for long distance impact bullet performance. Velocity's well over book maximum found with safe load work up.
codyadams
Well-Known Member
After this season I will be adding a couple more bullets, including a couple cayuga's, and a couple Apex bullets, to my Bullet Guide over on LRO. All I will say about the matter, is that after well over 100 personally observed harvests of pronghorn, deer and elk, there are many ways for a bullet to perform that will be extremely lethal on animals.
coldboremiracle
Well-Known Member
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Interesting, do you have a link you might share?
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shaughn
Guest
Ballistic studies dot com he's into more than just terminal ballistics
Ballistic Studies .com. This guy has probably autopsied more game animals and done more tests than anyone I know of.
Nathan's studies for me are interesting from a hunting standpoint but also interesting if you look at what has happened to our 5.56 military cartridge and rifles over the years. First they used a high velocity 55 grain bullet from a 20" 12 twist barrel IIRC. The 12" twist only marginally stabilized the bullet which produced some initial yaw in the projectile. Combine that with the higher velocity and you got a very high likelihood that the bullet would tumble on impact and create larger wound channels. Then we decided that the combination created inhumane wounds. Introduce the m855 and the 14" barrel of the M4 today along with a much faster twist rate. It barely makes the tumbling threshold at muzzle velocity and is much more likely to pencil through therefore creating a far less inhumane wound and in my opinion decreasing the rounds knockdown or killing power significantly. I don't know. I was bored so I figured I would share that.
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Calvin45
Well-Known Member
I've learned a lot reading that guy's material.
Don't know that I fully agree with everything but can't argue with his tremendous field experience. And it's not that I even disagree with anything per se, I'm just not fully sold on it all is all.
His material is what opened my mind to using match bullets for hunting in certain applications. Back when the 208 amax was about the biggest baddest reliably
upsetting 30 cal bullet for long range out there, and he said so, despite much hate and resistance.
I've been changed from Berger/ELD to Bonded multiple times. For mono metal I really like hammers, my experience has been outstanding to 400 yards. At this point in time I'm in the Heavy x caliber Berger/ELD, 156s x 6.5s, 175s and above for 7s, and over 200s for 30s. All these have worked great lately. Next season maybe I'll play with something else, all part of the fun.
One thing I have to keep reminding myself of with Nathon's findings is that he and clients are shooting many animals at very long ranges which is where the Amax and eldm, ballistic tips really come into their own. Out to 200 yards I sometimes may find some fault with his findings but the man certainly has a ton of 1st hand experience.
I use a 168 Amax out of a 20" barreled AR 10 at times for depredation and it is nasty.
Calvin45
Well-Known Member
What I think he most clearly articulates is that projectile toughness, sectional density, and impact velocity can be optimized for a given target resistance.
That a bullet/cartridge combo that is ideal for water Buffalo is quite likely a slower killer of deer sized game than an "ordinary" cartridge shooting soft points. And, in addition, if a given projectile isn't appropriate for fast killing of a given creature, just driving faster only gets you so far: it's a much better path to just use a bigger bullet altogether. He really dispels the mythical killing status attributed to .30 caliber magnums and the .378 weatherby as well, that when utilized to their strengths they're incredibly effective rounds…but too many people see the physical size of the cartridge and assume it's some kind of unconditional death ray or cannon. It isn't.
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shaughn
Guest
Bullet wound profiles for non dangerous game are one thing, then they get a bit blurry for those animals that straddle the divide, and then you have those firmly in the bite kick gore and get even camp and not all game is shot at put a stamp on the bullet distances.
So any development of bullet design and selection, in my opinion, has to consider who what where and a personal comfort level as well as do you want it to get into a swamp bog lake or where you can't recover it.
The needs of a military are ruled by more than just lethality, so while the bullets are suitable for combat between Hague and Geneva convention signatories who are also modern equipped armies, they are lacking when applied against third word or bush league combatants.
That is why JAG has a ruling about what ammunition can be used against non signatories of the Hague Convention's, when a formal war has not been declared. Yes you do need a lawyer to figure it out.
My selection of bullet my go towards a bit tougher bullet , that gives me , a thru and thru, with a fair bit of damage in between.
So any development of bullet design and selection, in my opinion, has to consider who what where and a personal comfort level as well as do you want it to get into a swamp bog lake or where you can't recover it.
The needs of a military are ruled by more than just lethality, so while the bullets are suitable for combat between Hague and Geneva convention signatories who are also modern equipped armies, they are lacking when applied against third word or bush league combatants.
That is why JAG has a ruling about what ammunition can be used against non signatories of the Hague Convention's, when a formal war has not been declared. Yes you do need a lawyer to figure it out.
My selection of bullet my go towards a bit tougher bullet , that gives me , a thru and thru, with a fair bit of damage in between.
Calvin, I've seen exactly what he/you are referring to with a friend shooting whitetail with 300win mag. Partly poor bullet choice but animals were running much farther than similarly hit animals shot with 270 and 30/06. Crazy things can happen
