I will be building a lightweight 18" 25 Creedmoor for tree stand hunting next. The 26" 25-06AI is significantly overkill when shots are within 100 yards. I really built that 25-06AI rifle for antelope and mule deer out west.
Badlands Precision Bullets thread - From BC to terminal ballistics
- Thread starter codyadams
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Phil Rizzo
Well-Known Member
You will be covered there.
The .257 is getting long over due attention in the bullet dept these days.
last isn't least!
The .257 is getting long over due attention in the bullet dept these days.
last isn't least!
Gday cbuck
Gets nothing better than that right
There
Now you've started on the mono journey keep watching those wounds you've got the skills to look @ those wounds in a constructive manner from your description above
Get those wounds consistent over those is one I believe nrailer can achieve which will lesson those runs again
Not advocating bad shots as it's life it happens now & then & your kids are not shooting badly either I call that fantastic by them
You've taught them well
Cheers
Congrats on those deer with your kidsOur first rifle deer season arrived here in Missouri this weekend and both my boys ended up shooting their first deer, a whitetail doe, using the 0.257" SBD2 110gr.
The rifle used was a Howa 1500 25-06AI with 26" 1:7" and Omega 300 suppressor, an 11# rifle fully loaded, so I don't want to hear any complaints about an adult that thinks a 10# rifle is heavy
Muzzle velocity on this load is 3421fps.
The first deer shot yesterday was a young doe and the shot was taken almost perfectly broadside at 75 yards. Impact velocity was approximately 3305fps with 2668ft.# of energy. Bullet impact perfectly mid body, but back near the last rib. Exit was slightly forward of that on the opposite side. Per usual, entrance hole what bullet diameter and exit was slightly larger than 1" with evidence that there was some amount of fragmentation with multiple small exit holes surrounding the shank exit hole. The bullet destroyed the liver with additional damage to the rumen and minor damage to one lung lobe. There were a few dark spots of blood at POI, but there was no additional blood to be found for the first 100 yards of the path the deer ran. Once blood trail started, the deer lasted another 20 yards. I would have preferred that the shot be further forward into the front shoulder, but even I have made this same shot before so I can't fault a 6-year old too much.
How doe was found with exit wound facing up.
View attachment 500078
Damage done to liver
View attachment 500079
Exit hole showing possible fragmentation.
View attachment 500081
The second deer shot with this bullet was a mature doe with much different shot placement. Doe was in the same shooting lane and virtually the same position but about 5 yards closer. Bullet entered in the front leg and exited just behind the crease in the opposite side. She ran a total of 15 yards and last maybe two seconds.
Bullet and bone fragmentation was significant with this shot and destruction was unlike anything I have seen with a solid copper bullet, not even my 300 PRC. Blood trail was very significant and had bright red blood sprayed all over the vegetation for the full 15 yards. My 8-year old easily blood trailed the deer without assistance. Again, entrance was roughly bullet diameter and exit was roughly 1", but internal damage was a much more than the exterior suggested. The front leg where the bullet entered was completely broken and I found copper fragments under the hide on opposite side.
Second deer showing entrance hole in front shoulder.
View attachment 500083
Thumb pointing at location of bullet entry. Blood under skin all the way to the back of the ribs.
View attachment 500084
After removing front quarter the bullets entrance into the chest cavity was found. Nearly a 3" opening just forward of the heart. Significant blood found through, but it appeared to not be bloodshot meat, just pooled and coagulated blood.
View attachment 500085
Bullet exit behind the crease. ~1" exit.
View attachment 500086
Chest cavity at bullet exit.
View attachment 500087
Copper fragments under hide on opposite side
View attachment 500088
In addition to being grateful for harvesting these two animals and sharing that experience with my kids for their first deer, I was pleased to be able to see two very different shot placements in the same day with the exact same bullet.
One shot was a little too far back for my liking and one was hard into the front shoulder.
The one that was too far back had very minimal impact with bone and blood trail was nearly non-existent. The shot into the shoulder had significant bone impact and significant trauma to the circulatory system, spraying blood out of the exit wound.
The biggest lesson reinforced today is, "put the bullet in the right spot". For me that is into the heart/lung area and not behind the crease. I have shot deer with lead core bullets too far back and have had the same results, dead deer but no blood trail. Same thing with lead core on elk. Shot in liver, ran 100 yards, but no blood trail.
This is the behavior I was hoping to see with this bullet as I have cautiously been approaching the idea of using it on elk this fall. I am very confident in that choice now for distances out to 400 yards. I know many won't consider that long range, but when I rarely shoot deer past 100, 400 is pretty far out there.
Gets nothing better than that right
There
Now you've started on the mono journey keep watching those wounds you've got the skills to look @ those wounds in a constructive manner from your description above
Get those wounds consistent over those is one I believe nrailer can achieve which will lesson those runs again
Not advocating bad shots as it's life it happens now & then & your kids are not shooting badly either I call that fantastic by them
You've taught them well
Cheers
Forgot to include this, but I figured you guys might find it interesting: Here is a 135 SBD2 shot into Ballistic gel at 100 yards.
Impact velocity here is 3015, so I'm curious to see what this looks like at a more realistic impact vel, but overall the wound channel is consistent and seems to indicate adequate stability (and this is shot at near sea level from a 1:7.5 twist barrel)
Coming from Hammer, it's nice to see those petals come off uniformly and with a little less violence. I can report that they move a fair bit further in living tissue though.
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nralifer
Well-Known Member
akmtnhnt
Well-Known Member
Is that guy 10ft tall or is that a baby moose with antlers?
Gday henryt thanks for taking the time & cost of that
Seen it in a few cases of gel that people have put up & never used gel myself so just curious as I don't take information on gel as Gospel as been burnt from thinking it would act that way once in a critter
Cheers
General question & open to anyone as I'm curious what is the reason that gel shows that permanent wound channel going thick to thin back to thick again
Seen it in a few cases of gel that people have put up & never used gel myself so just curious as I don't take information on gel as Gospel as been burnt from thinking it would act that way once in a critter
Cheers
Was wondering the same thing
nralifer
Well-Known Member
Another customer submitted photo of a DRT kill he made using the 250gr 338 SBD2 bullet on a large Buck hit at 1214yds. His MV was 3225 from his 33XC, altitude 11089 ft with impact velocity estimated to be 2290 fps (see JBM trajectory chart). Deer was hit at the base of the neck taking out the cervical spine. The high impact velocity illustrates the importance of the high BC.
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nralifer
Well-Known Member
No need to be sarcastic. We had had a conversation about whether the 150 gr 284 BD would be enough for a Moose. I assured him it was more than enough. It penetrates better with better wt retention than heavier lead core bullets. Penetration and placement is what counts, not so much the weight.
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nralifer
Well-Known Member
Very good account of high impact velocity wounds of the 110 gr 257BD2. The pics show that the petals do shed at these very high impact speeds but do so just before exiting. The liver sustained very heavy damage indicating the bullet went through it with petals deployed. One has to remember that a shot that far back also took out the diaphragm and probably also hit one or both lungs. The bleeding from the liver was extensive but not as catastrophic as a heart shot, and will not drop the blood pressure nearly as fast. Also, there is not going to be the creation of a tension pneumothorax because the air leaking into the chest cavity from the lungs also leaks into the abdominal cavity and is not trapped under pressure in the chest cavity. Some tracking will be needed.Our first rifle deer season arrived here in Missouri this weekend and both my boys ended up shooting their first deer, a whitetail doe, using the 0.257" SBD2 110gr.
The rifle used was a Howa 1500 25-06AI with 26" 1:7" and Omega 300 suppressor, an 11# rifle fully loaded, so I don't want to hear any complaints about an adult that thinks a 10# rifle is heavy
Muzzle velocity on this load is 3421fps.
The first deer shot yesterday was a young doe and the shot was taken almost perfectly broadside at 75 yards. Impact velocity was approximately 3305fps with 2668ft.# of energy. Bullet impact perfectly mid body, but back near the last rib. Exit was slightly forward of that on the opposite side. Per usual, entrance hole what bullet diameter and exit was slightly larger than 1" with evidence that there was some amount of fragmentation with multiple small exit holes surrounding the shank exit hole. The bullet destroyed the liver with additional damage to the rumen and minor damage to one lung lobe. There were a few dark spots of blood at POI, but there was no additional blood to be found for the first 100 yards of the path the deer ran. Once blood trail started, the deer lasted another 20 yards. I would have preferred that the shot be further forward into the front shoulder, but even I have made this same shot before so I can't fault a 6-year old too much.
How doe was found with exit wound facing up.
View attachment 500078
Damage done to liver
View attachment 500079
Exit hole showing possible fragmentation.
View attachment 500081
The second deer shot with this bullet was a mature doe with much different shot placement. Doe was in the same shooting lane and virtually the same position but about 5 yards closer. Bullet entered in the front leg and exited just behind the crease in the opposite side. She ran a total of 15 yards and last maybe two seconds.
Bullet and bone fragmentation was significant with this shot and destruction was unlike anything I have seen with a solid copper bullet, not even my 300 PRC. Blood trail was very significant and had bright red blood sprayed all over the vegetation for the full 15 yards. My 8-year old easily blood trailed the deer without assistance. Again, entrance was roughly bullet diameter and exit was roughly 1", but internal damage was a much more than the exterior suggested. The front leg where the bullet entered was completely broken and I found copper fragments under the hide on opposite side.
Second deer showing entrance hole in front shoulder.
View attachment 500083
Thumb pointing at location of bullet entry. Blood under skin all the way to the back of the ribs.
View attachment 500084
After removing front quarter the bullets entrance into the chest cavity was found. Nearly a 3" opening just forward of the heart. Significant blood found through, but it appeared to not be bloodshot meat, just pooled and coagulated blood.
View attachment 500085
Bullet exit behind the crease. ~1" exit.
View attachment 500086
Chest cavity at bullet exit.
View attachment 500087
Copper fragments under hide on opposite side
View attachment 500088
In addition to being grateful for harvesting these two animals and sharing that experience with my kids for their first deer, I was pleased to be able to see two very different shot placements in the same day with the exact same bullet.
One shot was a little too far back for my liking and one was hard into the front shoulder.
The one that was too far back had very minimal impact with bone and blood trail was nearly non-existent. The shot into the shoulder had significant bone impact and significant trauma to the circulatory system, spraying blood out of the exit wound.
The biggest lesson reinforced today is, "put the bullet in the right spot". For me that is into the heart/lung area and not behind the crease. I have shot deer with lead core bullets too far back and have had the same results, dead deer but no blood trail. Same thing with lead core on elk. Shot in liver, ran 100 yards, but no blood trail.
This is the behavior I was hoping to see with this bullet as I have cautiously been approaching the idea of using it on elk this fall. I am very confident in that choice now for distances out to 400 yards. I know many won't consider that long range, but when I rarely shoot deer past 100, 400 is pretty far out there.
nralifer
Well-Known Member
To answer your question about stability, the general rule is that as the atmospheric pressure increases the SG decreases. That means that the density of the air has a big role in the stability of a bullet. With the 7.5 twist, at sea level your stability will be reduced to marginal levels. The higher you go in altitude the greater the stability of the bullet. In this case, I would recommend you switch to the 125 gr 264BD2 if you plan on hunting at sea level in cold weather, as the air density will be the highest and stability will be proportionally reduced.
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nralifer
Well-Known Member
You need to shoot these Bulldozers at animals yourself, place the bullets well then make comments based on actual experience and backed up by photographic evidence of the wound channels. These bullets do not act like other "monos" and to extrapolate the behavior of other monos as predictors of Bulldozer behavior at impact is not accurate.Gday northkill
Phew a level head & looks like your not the only one
Looks like I can delve a bit deeper with you & those who want to understand a bit more
Yes funny stuff does happen every now & then but I guarantee there is a reason we are just not smart enough to see it well I'm not as some I really scratch my head with & after numerous attempts to replicate I give up & just right it off but the ones I have seen often I nearly guarantee you would have had a compromised meplat now if that was in a smaller critter or less resistance etc the path before the turn would probably never be seen until oneday & you sir got that oneday then .
now It won't happen all the time that's the frustrating thing , I should say good thing as it's better it doesn't but frustrates me because it does show up all the time in different ways & just look here with different people & different brands & it's by clearing our heads & getting back to basics we start to see patterns & what the companies can improve on if they wish let alone understand & individually if one wants to be part of the bingo raffle is upto them so
Go for it but don't blame what is a pattern when it happens oh & one maybe lucky to never have it happen as a bingo raffle seems to go like that but play the game enough & it will , well to someone
The most consistent part of what's happening to cause this can be traced back to the shape of the meplat or marginal twist
Combine those 2 & your % goes way higher
Those are factual results that once you see you can't deny , well imo of course but if it's not so , please show me the errors in what has shown to be a extremely reliable indicator
A good place to start one's learning ability is to use true solids & potentially this maybe handguns for a lot of you guys mine was DG & I can't fault the good true solids of today yes I don't see or find any faults in those designs yet there is also different variations of them & some suite a application better than another & visa versa
Hmmm sounds like c&c , monos as a great examplewell imo once again
I just hope that the companies delve deeper & give us that pretty well perfect pill in a non true solid pill in time to come
Cheers
nralifer
Well-Known Member
There are a couple of reasons why bullets can exhibit this cork screwing effect. It is even seen in soldiers hit with FMG lead core bullets. First is that the sudden increase in density as the bullet enters the animal can cause a sudden loss of stability and tumbling of the bullet with highly unpredictable expansion which often times is asymmetric. You can see this in gel testing when testing for low impact velocity expansion if the twist of the barrel is insufficient to stabilize the bullet prior to impact. The second is oblique impacts on bone causing partial loss of petals and tumbling of the bullet shanks because of asymmetric frontal surface steering the bullet away from a straight line, or actually inducing tumbling or both. The best safeguard is to adequately stabilize the bullet from the get go to an SG of at least 1.5. Knowing whether the impact was at right angles or not is more accurately determined if the animal is close. At 300+ yds, that determination becomes less accurate.
