Berger VLD pencil through Elk in Cold?

[Hard rock]

Thanks this is super helpful to me. I'm certain the bull died eventually, and clearly I do not know where. I tracked for two days as long as I could, never found a body, but with 7 elk in the bachelor herd, it's a lot of trying to figure out who went where. I lost a poorly shot cow to a barnes ttsx years ago, and I was hoping to never experience that again. I never considered the thicker fat/hide combined with the lung shot already not producing much in the way of blood trail.
Sounds like there's enough support for the drill bit here that I'm going to give it another shot.

Why take the chances with a bullet that may or may not perform? There better options for a hunting bullet . Terminal performance and shot placement works every time . There's a lot of good options out there l personally would not hunt with a bullet I had too drill the tip out on . Reminds me of when I was a kid filling a full metal jacket cal 30 carbine trying too make it a expanding bullet ,my first deer knockdown , then up and a way too never be seen again

 

[DakotaFire101]

I had an incident once with a whitail buck I shot at 200 yards with a 180 hvld out of a 28 nosler. It was a perfect behind the shoulder shot but the buck stood there like he hadn't even been hit. I quickly followed up and put one through the shoulder blade which dropped him instantly. The first shot poked a clean 7mm sized hole through both lungs but I think he was so rutted up he thought he'd been stuck by another deer. When it was all said and done I had a very dead deer but I switched to berger hybrids and elite hunters and now take high shoulder shots or frontal brisket shots when I can. Anything to put a little more resistance on that bullet to get it to expand.

 

[big7fan]

I have been using bergers for over twenty years...... starting using them when everthing came in a yellow box. On game, I always use the HVLD or the EOL.
Starting about three years ago, I started using a drill bit to open up the noses.
Terminal performance has always been exceptional.....even before I started opening up the noses.
I think some of the terminal performance issues are related to two scenarios.
One is not enough twist to fully stabilize the bullet, and the bullet enters the animal at something less than perpendicular.
The second scenario is on longer shots where the bullet is traveling at less than 1800 fps when it contacts the animal. Bergers need some velocity to perform as designed. Several years back I started shooting at game at longer distances which is why I started opening up the noses. I felt like I was pushing the 1800 fps minimum that berger recommends and wanted to give the bullet every opportunity to perform as designed.
Some have talked about bergers "penciling" at high velocities at shorter distances. I believe opening up the tip will take care of this problem. But I have never had this particular issue.

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Stopped hunting with Bergers several years ago. Not because of poor performance on game but pain to get to shoot and still fit in magazine plus availability at the time. I can get hammers here in three days. And they open up.

I believe that the Berger "Classic Hunter" bullets were designed to address magazine limitations. But you're right, the VLD bullets, which most Berger shooters seem to prefer, are a problem in many rifles.

 

[The_Whitetail_kid]

Neither I nor my dad have never had a Berger pencil through. We've killed in total 2 mule deer, 3 whitetail, 3 elk, and 2 hogs with Berger's and have had great results. Neither of the mule deer made it far, one of the elk dropped and the other 2 needed follow up shots due to less than ideal shot placement, but the bullets still performed well. The whitetail have all ran very short distances and had massive trauma and damage done to them as determined when dressing. And both of the hogs have dropped in their tracks, and that's with shoulder shots. Some of these have been shot with a 168 Berger Vld out of a 7 rem Mag, the others the 156 Berger out of a 6.5 PRC. I'm not sure what your issue is.

 

[zerosprk]

Get a meplat trimmer, 1mm drill bits and a pen vise. Square the ends and drill the tips - every one of them. Provided you do your part, I seriously doubt that you will any issues not associated with packing out a dead critter. At least that has been my experience.

 

[HARPERC]

Dont get me wrong, i agree with your assertion that shot placement is a prime factor, but if it was the only factor we would all be hunting with FMJ's.

When it comes to quick kills, bullet performance is a factor. Period.

I hunt a lot in temps below 0F, and I do see less blood in the cold. As Lance pointed out, it's unlikely the bullet is effected by the cold - not only is the bullet heated by friction in its path down the bore, but copper and lead do not get brittle like some other metals do in the cold (look up DBTT - ductile to brittle temperature transition - this is well understood in materials engineering)

Hunting in -20C is not uncommon for me. Coldest kill I have is a wolf right around -40C.

I think there might be a physiological effect where wounds have a tendency to seal up faster and leak less in the cold. Maybe there is more tension on the skin to make hair bushier and thicker? Maybe blood freezes quickly as it exits? Maybe blood is a little more viscous due to cold temps? I don't know...

Yes, is unfortunate that some blame their failures on bullet performance without evidence, but I don't see that happening in this thread.

The issue of clogged hollow points causing bergers to fail to expand is well known. I always check tips. One member here has a lot of experience with Berger's and he just blows across the tips. If they dont sound right, he marks them for practice.

Haven't tried that method myself, but might give it a shot going forward. Seems easy enough, especially dealing with pocket lint or dropped ammo in the field.

Just my thoughts - not trying to stir the pot, sorry for the ramble

Just my thoughts,

Excellent thoughts!

One of the things I wondered about in this scenario is cold, and ice on the animal clogging the tip, Mud from a wallow, soaking wet from the rain etc. changes the target a bit.

Adrenaline and cold both shift blood flow. As will gravity, and exertion.

Respectfully, but experientially I believe the lung(s), if not robust is at least misunderstood. Rather than 2 big balloons that pop there are numerous segments and sub segments each capable of independent function. To really destroy airflow one has to hit the large central airways.

Most of the blood flow in the lung oozes, rather than flows. Also a wonderful (thank the Creator) is how blood flow changes, not just with adrenaline, but to shift away from injured lung units to maximize matching air to blood.

Certainly survival in a lung shot animal may be rare (recovered animals with old wounds confirm it happens), recovery can be turned into a nightmare readily

FWIW.

 

[Frank in the Laurels]

...yep, the choice is clear..Nosler Partition...stop monkeying around..life is stressful enough without worrying about all that....hunters for 75+ years can't be that wrong.

 

[Plinker147]

I have good luck with VLD's but I've had better and more consistent performance with the elite hunters. The VLD would really fragment one time , then not much another. The elite seem to perform the same every time. The 175 are pretty much all I hunt with in my 280ai. I've used the elites in 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, 30 and 338 all performed the same. I would recommend trying the elites if you can find them

 

[FEENIX]

...yep, the choice is clear..Nosler Partition...stop monkeying around..life is stressful enough without worrying about all that....hunters for 75+ years can't be that wrong.

Perhaps for you but NOT for everybody. I used NP for many years before I transitioned to NBT and NAB, and eventually to Bergers as my go-to bullet for LRH. The only thing that is clear is that we have plenty of choices for our personal preferences and intended purposes. Despite some bullet manufacturers' claim, there is no such thing as a magic bullet that applies to all situations.

 

[Frank in the Laurels]

Perhaps for you but NOT for everybody. I used NP for many years before I transitioned to NBT and NAB, and eventually to Bergers as my go-to bullet for LRH. The only thing that is clear is that we have plenty of choices for our personal preferences and intended purposes. Despite some bullet manufacturers' claim, there is no such thing as a magic bullet that applies to all situations.

...my only problem with all these long range everything's is they always fail one way or another...great groups, awesome velocity retention, flatter trajectory and they either don't mushroom or they completely come apart...out to 500 I'll stick with the plain Jane ho-hum Partitions...

 

[FEENIX]

...my only problem with all these long range everything's is they always fail one way or another...great groups, awesome velocity retention, flatter trajectory and they either don't mushroom or they completely come apart...out to 500 I'll stick with the plain Jane ho-hum Partitions...

That's your personal choice/preference; NOT a clear choice for all.

 

[2rjshort]

I've only shot a half dozen critters with VLDs. I've never had a pass through. Luckily there has always been massive internal damage. I've never drilled the tips but may start for insurance. What size bit is recommended for this?

 

[bigngreen]

...my only problem with all these long range everything's is they always fail one way or another...great groups, awesome velocity retention, flatter trajectory and they either don't mushroom or they completely come apart...out to 500 I'll stick with the plain Jane ho-hum Partitions...

Most of us were at some point shooting partitions and found something better. I've dug a lot of partitions out of elk that you could have loaded and shot again. In today bullet market not hard to find a better performing bullet for elk IMO!!