Is an ELD-M basically just a tipped berger?

[Huntnful]

Gentlemen I was not trying to stir up a hornets nest. That was not my intent. We all have our own opinions on what bullets to use. I do not make or design bullets. I leave that up to the experts. So if that expert gives me advice I'm gonna listen. From my understanding target bullets have a thicker jacket so they can handle higher pressures and that you bench rest shooters can chase their intended velocity. With that thicker jacket it stops that bullet from expanding properly. I have shot steel and sand with both hunting, and target bullets. The hunting bullet expands, the target bullet does not.

In the case of the ELD-M vs. ELD-X. The ELD-M has a thinner jacket throughout the whole bullet construction. The thinner jacket allows for creating an even more consistent bullet.

 

[VLD Pilot]

Gentlemen I was not trying to stir up a hornets nest. That was not my intent. We all have our own opinions on what bullets to use. I do not make or design bullets. I leave that up to the experts. So if that expert gives me advice I'm gonna listen. From my understanding target bullets have a thicker jacket so they can handle higher pressures and that you bench rest shooters can chase their intended velocity. With that thicker jacket it stops that bullet from expanding properly. I have shot steel and sand with both hunting, and target bullets. The hunting bullet expands, the target bullet does not.

I don't think you've done that. The discussion of Match vs Hunting bullets has always been personal and heated discussion is imminent in most cases. This one is not heated. I respect everyone's opinion and learn alot from many threads on this site. I just hope those that haven't used a match bullet for harvesting a deer with will consider trying it before calling it unethical just because it's labeled "Match" bullet. I respect those that have tried them with poor results and warn against there use. That result has been 180° opposite mine. People should do the work themselves before bashing them a hunting bullets. It wasn't until I started shooting ground hogs with the 6.5 Amax bullets before I realized they perform pretty good on flesh. Shooting some very large ground hogs with great bullet performance made me try them on a doe hunt. Been using them ever since on deer hunts where shot placement is easy. I do use an assortment of hunting bullets designated for various shot placement where the bullet needs to stay together.

 

[sendero72]

Until I retired I had the run of nearly 60,000 acres locally with unlimited numbers of hogs, predators, and varmints that needed to be controlled.

Every fall I'd also head north in early Sept and would train/hunt every state from OK to MT then across to WA and would come back down through OR and ID and try to be back home by Thanksgiving to get ready for the Texas season.

We had nights we killed upwards of sixty hogs a night and a dozen coyotes.

My day job was guiding and training dogs which put me in constant contact with them as well.

Many of my clients want their dogs to blood trail so it worked right into our hunts and training when a hog, coyote or bobcat popped up.

Now that sounds like fun!

 

[WildRose]

Now that sounds like fun!

A lot of my new customers back in the old days would say, "Man when I grow up I want to be you, your life is my dream vacation".

Of course, after a 3-6 day hunt they realized I was putting in around 20hrs a day for six straight months and 16 hours a day seven days a week the rest of the year to provide them those dream trips.

I'd always try to keep the last day of the season for just myself or myself and one or two of my best friends. Take out my favorite dog and just have a good time so as to remind me that in spite of all the work I truly loved what I did for a living.

Then starting the next day for the next week or two I'd spend every waking moment in a recliner that I wasn't in the bathroom because I just didn't have the energy left to do anything else.

Doc finally told me if I didn't quit that I wasn't going to make it to fifty. I was 49 at the time so I took it to heart.

 

[WildRose]

They don't function exactly the same. The hunting Bergers penetrate a few inches before violently expanding. The ELDs, or anything with a plastic tip begin expanding upon impact. How violent that expansion is depends on bullet construction, target composition and impact velocity.

John

Anything with a hollow point begins expanding on contact as well providing it doesn't clog up and pencil through.

The thickness and taper of the jacket itself is the major deciding factor in how rapidly that expansion increases and if/where it will cease.

Thin jackets expand violently on impact, thick jackets may not expand at all unless they hit something solid.

Tapered jackets give more controlled and predictable results than either of the other two.

 

[WildRose]

Another thing I read some where was that ELDM's can be "splashy" if impact velocities are above 2600 fps. Some went back to VLD's because they seem tougher while others love their AMAx's and ELDM's. It can get even more esoteric with the different bullet weight so researching ANY bullet is important to fit the right bullet for the right job. Just my two cents from the peanut galley.

Berger uses a J-4 Jacket on their target bullets. It's a very thick, consistent jacket with no taper which is why they can have serious problems with penciling through.

They also had a big problem for a long time with their tips not being completely hollow. People would drill them out and get better results but still had problems with the VLD's failing to expand.

I may be wrong but one of the things I believe they did to get better performance in their hunting line was to go to a tapered jacket to ensure better consistency in initiating expansion.

 

[WildRose]

Gentlemen I was not trying to stir up a hornets nest. That was not my intent. We all have our own opinions on what bullets to use. I do not make or design bullets. I leave that up to the experts. So if that expert gives me advice I'm gonna listen. From my understanding target bullets have a thicker jacket so they can handle higher pressures and that you bench rest shooters can chase their intended velocity. With that thicker jacket it stops that bullet from expanding properly. I have shot steel and sand with both hunting, and target bullets. The hunting bullet expands, the target bullet does not.

Unfortunately that isn't even a rule. There are two kinds of target bullets. Those with very heavy jackets that won't expand much if at all and tend to pencil through and those like the SMK with very thin, fragile jackets that tend to fragment violently on contact, often very shallow.

 

[xsn10s]

I'm not sure what all the hub bub is about the topic. Here's an article by John Barsness written back in 2007. I trust his results, and the results of many others who take game every year with Berger bullets. https://www.bergerbullets.com/articles/john-barsness-berger-bullets.pdf

 

[WildRose]

I'm not sure what all the hub bub is about the topic. Here's an article by John Barsness written back in 2007. I trust his results, and the results of many others who take game every year with Berger bullets. https://www.bergerbullets.com/articles/john-barsness-berger-bullets.pdf

Your link is broken.

I trust my own results along with the others who had problems with them penciling through or violently expanding and fragmenting without good penetration.

This was a hot topic of discussion here for quite a while with a whole lot of documentation supporting those facts.

Shoot what you will but don't dismiss the experiences of others that may vary from your own.

Lot's of people are happy with the results they've gotten, lot's of people aren't.

 

[xsn10s]

Your link is broken.

I trust my own results along with the others who had problems with them penciling through or violently expanding and fragmenting without good penetration.

This was a hot topic of discussion here for quite a while with a whole lot of documentation supporting those facts.

Shoot what you will but don't dismiss the experiences of others that may vary from your own.

Lot's of people are happy with the results they've gotten, lot's of people aren't.

I checked the link and it works.

 

[VLD Pilot]

I'm not sure what all the hub bub is about the topic. Here's an article by John Barsness written back in 2007. I trust his results, and the results of many others who take game every year with Berger bullets. https://www.bergerbullets.com/articles/john-barsness-berger-bullets.pdf

While I agree with his writings in most cases, gelatin isn't a big elk/moose or Bear. I've never seen bones in those gelatin models. That's one important factor they leave out. IF and only if boneless meat is hit would these tests be accurate.

 

[WildRose]

While I agree with his writings in most cases, gelatin isn't a big elk/moose or Bear. I've never seen bones in those gelatin models. That's one important factor they leave out. IF and only if boneless meat is hit would these tests be accurate.

When you do those are brittle dried out bones which shatter easily.

 

[WildRose]

I checked the link and it works.

 

[xsn10s]

It's probably your computer's settings. I had no problem reaching them. Or do a simple search using "John Barsness Berger Bullets". Here's another of John Barsness articles featuring bullets that changed hunting, and how they continued to evolve. https://bergerbullets.com/articles/john-barsness-modern-bullet.pdf