Opinions wanted on a new wildcat idea, please offer opinion...

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Fiftydriver, Jun 2, 2006.

  1. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    To all,

    I have designed a new wildcat to add to my family of rounds. It will be called the 50 Allen Bench Rest. As of right now it is only on paper but I believe it will be submitted within a week or two for a reamer to be built.

    I wanted to test the waters if you will with the group of shooters that I have the most respect for in the LR shooting community. I have talked to a couple friends and bounced off the idea and have received alot of good positive feed back and want to throw the idea to a larger portion of the public.

    The idea with this round is to offer true 50 BMG match performance but in a much more cost effective and efficent package. I will not go into details on the case design right now just for design integrity issues but I do want to offer my design and performance goals and see what you think about this new round.

    First off, most 1000 yard BR shooters in the 50 cal world are loading 750 to 800 gr match bullets to a velocity range of 2450 to 2550 fps depending on the bullet weight used. Now certainly the big 50 BMG will top this level of performance easily. I have personally loaded the 750 gr A-Max to +2700 fps but recoil is less then enjoyable and shooting this level of power accurately becomes extremely difficult in a 30 to 40 lb rifle.

    As such most BMG match shooters load to these lower 2450 to 2550 fps velocity levels and recoil is significantly reduced and performance with the heavy match 50 cal bullets is extremely consistant.

    The problem with this level load in the BMG is that with +200 gr of slow burning powder, carbon fouling is a major issue because in effect this chambering is extremely inefficent at these low pressures as far as producing a clean powder burn. This can effect long range accuracy dramatically if left unchecked.

    My idea is to offer a new wildcat that will provide this same level of performance with the same bullet weights but operate in a working pressure range of 65,000 psi compared to 40,000 for the BMG. This will offer significantly cleaner powder burns and also greatly reduce the frequency needed to remove the carbon fouling from your bore. Simply put, longer accurate shot strings between cleaning.

    Other advantages of my design will be using about 40% smaller powder charges of a much faster burning rate powder. This will increase barrel life significantly and also perform very well in shorter barrel lengths of 28 to 30".

    Another advantage is that this round will be able to be chambered in conventional receivers such as several from BAT. This alone will drop nearly $1000 off the price of the rifle compared to a 50 BMG actioned rifle simply by the lower priced receivers.

    Basically here are the performance goals I expect for this new wildcat:

    -2500 fps with 750 gr A-Max
    -Much cleaner buring then 50 BMG
    -Much smaller powder charges
    -Less recoil
    -Wider selection of usible powders(H-4350 and H-4831 range)
    -Can be used in much smaller and ligher receivers
    -Receivers are much less expensive

    Rounds like the 50 Peacekeeper have been around for quite awhile and while they advertize that they come close to 50 BMG match performance, the 50 ABR should offer true 50 BMG match performance.

    Rifles could be built as light as 14 lbs without the use of exotic metals or barrels for tactical or hunting purposes. Or they could be built into heavy rifles for match use where recoil would not be even worth mentioning and extreme range consistancy should be amazing.

    Basically it offers all the match performance of the BMG but with the option to go light with the rifle as well if wanted.

    Trajectory will certainly not be up to what the smaller caliber Allen Magnums would be but that is not the design requirements for this wildcat. Bullet drop is consistant and easy to figure. Windage would be quite low with the high BC bullets and energy would be extremely high for this class of a round, pushing the 10,500 ft/lb level with a 750 gr A-Max.

    Using the new Short baring surface 750 gr ULD RBBT Wildcat Bullet, 2600 fps should be possible for around 11,300 ft/lbs of energy. This is a much shorter bullet then the 750 gr A-Max and is designed more as a true big game hunting bullet. BC would be lower then the A-Max but it should be in the +.700 range still.

    Anyway, let me know what you think. Again, no details on specific case designs yet but that will come soon if this is a go.

    Thanks for your opinion and time,

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  2. sewwhat89

    sewwhat89 Well-Known Member

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    I have an idea on what your wildcat desing would be. I would argue that anytime you can get 95%+ load densities, regardless of powder burn rate, that you would have a more consistent round than one that operates at 70-80% load density. Loading BMGs to the 2450s with say the AMAX will not net you high load densities. Getting more uniform ignition in a tighter package should be head and shoulders better, in theory, than the BMG at those operating parameters. I look forward to seeing more info as you work things out. Best of luck!
     

  3. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    I am sure there are already small case 50's in use for LR competition. Given your goals for performance, you will be needing the largest 'small' case.

    I would guess a modified 505Gibbs/Chey Tac. I doubt you would want to use Lazz brass.

    I agree that high load densities at elevated pressures lead to smaller velocity variations and the potential for better LR accuracy.

    That is the basis for all my Mystic wildcats and the 6BR/PPC/XT, 6.5X47 Lapua and short mags. It does work and I see no reason why it will not work in a 50cal.

    Best part is we have lots of powders now that can burn properly for this case volume. Even with 140 to 150gr of powder, a LR magnum primer will still ignite effectively.

    The only downside is the market. The cost for BMG slugs is many times more then 338. Ballistics are no where as nice as a big case 338/40/416.

    For 50cal comp, of course. For hunting, I wouldn't.

    But then, did wildcatting ever have to fill a need????

    Good luck with this project and the better mousetrap. However, I think with the 416 Barrett coming on line, looking at a 416 big boy would probably have a larger market and more appeal.

    Jerry
     
  4. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    My only question is about the necessary action (this round will be able to be chambered in conventional receivers such as several from BAT)

    So I wouldn't need to start w/an AR-50 action or some such?

    If you can get'er down to under 16 lbs w/a SS scope, and it won't loosen my one good retnia, hell yes! I'll start savin' up.....

    It'd be worth it to have the chance to piss off the Idaho FnG folks

    Also w/the lower action cost it would allow for inclusion of the Ivey rings which would be sweet on that heavy duty rainbow shooter. If ya get the "steel on target" the bullet will do the rest.

    Wanna trade for a 270.......Yea, Right.......No way!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  5. bjlooper

    bjlooper Well-Known Member

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    Kirby, this sounds intresting I would love one for a walk around hunting rifle. You would need a verey good muzzle break i ran the recoil numbers.

    With a 14lb rifle 120gr powder 750gr bullet and 2500fps

    Velocity of recoil 24.89(fps)
    Free recoil energy 134.65(ft/lbs)

    This is greater than the 500A-square. it will definatly get you attention.
    Dr B
     
  6. bjlooper

    bjlooper Well-Known Member

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    Kirby
    Would the 338 Kahn's case necked up to 50 cal have enough volume to meet your specs. If so could you use a Rem 700 action?
    DR B
     
  7. davewilson

    davewilson Well-Known Member

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    i don't think a rem action will be used with a 65k load and 50 cal/750 gr bullets. but you might be on to something with the kahn idea.i don't think it's a weatherby case though. i'm bettin it's a short chey-tac pushed out to 50 cal! i'm right aren't i Kirby?
     
  8. James Jones

    James Jones Well-Known Member

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    I gave the same type thought to a 50 cal made on the RUM brass that would be cut down so the whole loaded round would feed from a Rem Long action. I figured that at around 90grs of powder that if the pressure was raised that one could get a modest velocity I was thinking around 2200fps and with such a great bore to powder volume ratio that maybe some of the faster powders could be used.
    Hell a 750gr bullet launched at even 2000fps would produce more energy than any 7mm-33 cal in a conventional action.

    Sounds like a hell of an idea Kirby but would it be legal in "Kalifornia"
     
  9. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Sounds like a hell of an idea Kirby but would it be legal in "Kalifornia"

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Who cares about Kalifornia /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif They're all moving to Idaho anyway.

    BTW, this would be a near perfect cartridge for a wild steer that was runnin' the swamps over by Luling. Got to see him once in a while but was never able to pen or catch him.

    Would have to shoot through a couple or more trees to get him but the frustration was high enough and with a cartridge like that I'm pretty sure the rancher would have tried.
     
  10. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    [ QUOTE ]
    BTW, this would be a near perfect cartridge for a wild steer that was runnin' the swamps over by Luling. Got to see him once in a while but was never able to pen or catch him.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That 270 AM you've got on order is a proven steer killer!!!
     
  11. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

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    And Oregon...
     
  12. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    There's not much good I can say about OK, but at least we don't have an influx of liberal pansies!!
     
  13. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Sewwhat89,

    With the 50 BMG, there is a little trick you can use to get +95% load density with a muzzle velocity of around 2500 fps for good velocity consistancy. THe trick is simply to use slower burning powder then is needed. Alot of guys use VV 20N29 and still get good load densities and very good consistancies but carbon fouling is a major issue. This is where I feel this new design would be a better choice, longer shot strings with less cleaning.

    Thanks for your thoughts.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  14. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Jerry Teo,

    The Gibbs is not really an option as it will not handle the pressure I will be loading to. Obviously the Chey Tac is what I am looking at for the parent case because of its ablity to use high pressures.

    Lazz brass is to spendy, not great quality in some lots and really not large enough for what I want to do. This new round will have a much larger shoulder then would anything on a Lazz case for much more positive headspacing at high pressures.

    I do not feel this round will be direct competition to the 338 caliber rounds. Will not even compare ballistically. The crowd I am looking at for this chambering are those that want to get into 50 cal match shooting but just can not bring themselves to pay $5000-$6000 for a match grade 50 BMG rifle. I suspect I could build a heavy bench rifle in this chambering for around $3500 depending on options wanted. Same match performance, $1500 less in the rifle.

    Not only that, no special presses would be needed to load for this round.

    As far as the 416 Barrett goes, good idea but not needed. By that I mean, you do not need to shorten a BMG case or even use a BMG case to get the performance that they are getting in the 416 Barrett. Much more efficent options out there that will match this round in performance, we are working on those as we speak as well /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!

    Thanks for your thoughts, very good ones!!

    Kirby Allen(50)