Ok, Need some input on my build, please...

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by lovdasnow, Nov 6, 2006.

  1. lovdasnow

    lovdasnow Well-Known Member

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    Ok guys, trying to decide what to do with my Rem 700 300RUM.
    I was going to go with the 7mm AM, but now am not sure. I built my 300 RUM put a brake on it, trigger job, nightforce and started shooting, but am not getting it to shoot up to my expectations.

    I want a carry weight(10-12lbs if possible) 1000-1500yd gun. I will use this for elk and deer. If I went with the 7mm AM I would shoot the 200gr wildcat's, would those be alright for LR elk? Would like to keep barrel length to around 28" Also was wondering about those carbon barrels, if people are having good luck with them? I was pretty sure about kirby's 7mm AM, but now I've been reading about the edge, some good .30's, and I'm just about at ground zero for what to do.

    I wanted to get this action out soon, so I can get it back sometime in spring if that is an option, so any input would be great.

    I've got a lot of new Federal 300 rum brass, so I don't know if that would help with the decision at all. I just don't have a cartridge that really sticks out to me, maybe I should just have it rebuilt with the 300 RUM again, but something different sounds fun /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    so once again, any input would be greatly appreciated!
     
  2. Wild_Bill

    Wild_Bill Well-Known Member

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    Hi for a long range hammer the 338-300 Ultra (338 Edge)is an awsome performer. I would go with it as you will have a lot more energy at 1500 yards. at 1000 the 7mm has plenty of energy with the 200gr Wildcat projectiles but at 1500 yards the 338's are much better in my opinion. I would use a 30" barrel but a 28 would be OK aswell. you will be able to use your existing muzzle break on the 338 you will just have to have the centre holes opened up to suit.

    The 338 Edge will fit in your mag box and feed very well also you can just neck up all of your 300 ultra brass to 338 and shot it without fireforming. You could also have your 300 ultra sizing die opened up in the neck 40 thou and it will fit the 338 Edge.

    Forster will hone the neck of a loading die for about $20 i think it would be worth a go.

    As for the carbon barrel it is your choice i would go with a straight taper no6 profile barrel fluted to reduce the weight as the Carbon Wraping will almost double the price of the barrel blank. But it is your choice.

    Did you have the Action Trued? if not i would send your whole rifle to Kirby and have him do the job.

    Also has the rifle been bedded into the stock?

    Speek to Kirby and follow his recomendations as to the components to use.

    I have a Lawton Barrel on order in 338 i changed from an Australian made one and it will be 30" finished and fluted
    5" 1.275" paralell and .900" at the muzzle. I am thinking of going with a 9.5 twist to see how it go's

    Cheers Bill
    Australia
     

  3. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Ok guys, trying to decide what to do with my Rem 700 300RUM. Here's my 2 cents on your subject.
    I was going to go with the 7mm AM, but now am not sure. I built my 300 RUM put a brake on it, trigger job, nightforce and started shooting, but am not getting it to shoot up to my expectations.
    That's the problem with a my personal projects also. I wanted a good shooting 338 and after replacing the Win Mag bbl (getting it very accurate but insufficient velocity for what I wanted) replaced it with a 338 RUM take off bbl. After much testing with 225s & 250s and being unsatisfied with both accuracy and velocity I went to the 300SMK. I finally got the accuracy and somewhat decent velocity. This is after many $ in time and a couple of hundred shots.

    About the time I finished my factory project my 270 AM arrived. Here's the difference in the process. Bought a can of US 869, got some WC 169s w/195s on the way. Fire formed the cases. Broke in the bbl and sighted in at same time. Asked about BC. Used the number to shoot at several distances. Computer developed the drop chart before I ever went to the range. Shot to verify drop chart. It was spot on. Am ready to take it to the field with confidence to 1113yds and only 36 bullets down the tube. Bottom line is when you get the rifle from one of the rifle smiths here life is a whole lot more simple

    I want a carry weight(10-12lbs if possible) 1000-1500yd gun. A rifle of that weight in a caliber that is sufficient for what you want is not a problem. My AM is right at 12# fully dressed. However with the 30" #7 fluted bbl and a super light stock it is balanced towards the front. A bit top heavy for a carry gun but then it wasn't designed for that purpose. I'll just strap it in the drag bag/ shooting mat and strap that on my shoulders and head up the hill. I will use this for elk and deer. If I went with the 7mm AM I would shoot the 200gr wildcat's, would those be alright for LR elk? Ask buffalobob about the 7mm 200gr WC and a 900yd+ 6X6 bull. Even the little 277 195 WC gets to 1K with in excess of 2000 FPE. Short answer: hell yeh they're enough. Would like to keep barrel length to around 28" Also was wondering about those carbon barrels, if people are having good luck with them?I'll have to defer to the rifle smiths on this one. However, I've heard nothing but great things about the ABS bbls and expecially the 5R bores. Kirby's got a special rifling arrangement from them that appears promising GG got exceptional velocity out of the 300 SMK with his but he's shooting the 225 NABs. He attributes the good velocity to the bore. And his barrel is short. I think that Shawn's first Edge had a short barrel. Also, the 300SMK at 2700+ in my 26" bbl'd RUM that weighs right at 10# is a no problem shooter for all afternoon, prone. I was kind of skeer'd @ first but after the first shot all of that went away.
    I was pretty sure about kirby's 7mm AM,I'm thinking that the 7mmAM is based on the Lapua case and may not be compatible with the REM bolt face??? but now I've been reading about the edge, some good .30's, and I'm just about at ground zero for what to do.

    I wanted to get this action out soon, so I can get it back sometime in spring if that is an option, so any input would be great.

    I've got a lot of new Federal 300 rum brass, so I don't know if that would help with the decision at all. Don't even concern yourself about the 300RUM brass. It will work perfectly in the 270AM. I'll take it all off your hands after you make your decision. I just don't have a cartridge that really sticks out to me, I just don't have a cartridge that really sticks out to me, he says. I know whatcha mean. I originally ordered a 224AM but switched to the 270 as I could shoot yotes, deer and elk w/the same rifle. When it arrived I opened the package and my first impression was "It looks just like a rifle. Howbeit a unique and very very well crafted rifle. The real appreciation came when the 3 shot drop chart validation groups out to 500 meters cause jumps for joy and the 1113 yd "fun" shot was observed in the scope AND was spot on, I probably shed a tear, well at least walked a little lighter and I'm sure the grin was one of S-eatin' ones. Once you make your decision you WILL be pleased. maybe I should just have it rebuilt with the 300 RUM again Nah!, but something different sounds fun /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    so once again, any input would be greatly appreciated! You asked for it..../ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]
     
  4. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Lovdasnow,

    Well, first off thank you for considering my 7mm AM.

    If you have read many of my posts you already know I am pretty honest with my replies about my Allen Magnums and will do so here as well.

    The 7mm AM will certainly hammer any mature elk at 1500 yards using the 200 gr ULD RBBT out of a 28" barrel. You could expect 3200 fps pretty easily out of this barrel length with that bullet and with its very high BC you will have plenty of energy left at that range for any big game animal in the lower 48.

    That said, you need to consider what you are wanting to do. Taking a big game animal at 1000 yards is one thing, taking a big game animal at 1500 yards is totally different. It is expodentially more difficult to hit a specific target at 1500 yards compared to 1000 yards.

    Not that 1000 yards is easy but it is dramatically easier then 1500 yards. For a legit 1500 yard rifle, I personally feel 12 lbs or under is pretty light. I would look to more in the 15 lb range for this type of reach. There is a reason lighter rifles are harder to shoot at extreme range. It is not that they are less accurate in most cases, its because they are more difficult to shoot accurately compared to their heavier couterparts.

    At 1000 yards you can get away with 12 lbs of rifle weigh pretty easily. At 1500 yards I would still recommend more weight for more stability in the rifle.

    Now lets talk about your target game, elk. They are big and heavy critters and at times can prove to be less then willing to give up the ghost.

    Again, out to 1000 yards or a bit more I would have no problem at all taking a shot at any elk. Past that it is my opinion that your much better off with a larger caliber round.

    Ballistically, the 7mm AM with the 200 gr ULD RBBT is about as good as you will get with a conventional shoulder fired rifle. There are not many options out there that will get you flatter trajectory or less wind drift. Only one I have found so far are the 408 CT based 338 magnums like the Sniper Tac and my 338 Allen Mag and even at that they are not dramatically superior ballistically then the 7mm AM. They do offer more down range energy though.

    Unfortunately these are not a real practical option in a light rifle because of the size of the receiver needed to house them.

    The other choices you select are good ones but I would recommend skipping over the 300 RUM if you do not go with a 7mm AM. The reason is because the 7mm AM will offer flatter trajectory, less wind drift, higher retained velocity, higher retained energy and better penetration then what the 300 RUM will offer with conventional bullets, evey heavy 30 cal bullets.

    The 338 Edge has an advantage over the 7mm AM in a couple areas but the 7mm AM has a couple steps on the 338 Edge as well.

    First off, the 338 Edge is much easier to load for then the 7mm AM. The brass can be cold formed meaining no fireforming is needed for cases that are ready for full tilt pressures. Also it is easier to neck up a 300 RUM to 338 cal then it is to reduce a 338 Lapua case to 7mm.

    You will also get longer barrel life with the 338 Edge and on average they will be a bit less finicky to load for then the 7mm AM.

    The last advantage for the 338 Edge is simply the ability to throw a 300 gr bullet. While ballistically the 300 gr SMK fired from the 338 Edge will not compare to the 200 gr ULD RBBT in the 7mm AM at any range, it does land with more autority at long range without question.

    While the 200 gr 7mm may even have more retained energy and velocity then the 300 gr SMK, the big bullet will have more terminal effect on big game at ranges past 1000 yards.

    In the event there is no significant bullet expansion, the 338 bullet has the advantage of the signifiantly larger bullet diameter compared to the 7mm bullet.

    As far as the advantages of the 7mm AM, the main one is wind drift, significantly less then the RUM based 338s simply because of the higher velocity potential and higher BC of the bullet.

    I am not the best at accurately judging winds at ranges that are past 1/2 mile away from me. The big 200 gr ULD RBBT gives me more room for error in windage estimte. For me that can mean muffing the wind estimate and getting a solid liver hit instead of a shot to the paunch of a big game animal. At times those extra 3-4 inches can mean the difference between an animal to pack out and NOT.

    Also, case quality is much better for the 7mm AM using 338 Lapua cases but again to be honest, I have used Rem cases in my 270 AM all along and have never found them lacking in performance. They just wear out in the primer pocket faster with heavy loads.

    Still, that said, I think there are better options for a dedicated elk rifle for shooting out to 1500 yards.

    Simply put, in my opinion, for a 1000 yard rifle, an accurate rifle in the 10-12 lb range with any of the chamberings you listed will work very well when the rifle is dialed in.

    For ranges past that out to 1500 yards, I would still recommend a 15 lb class rifle and personally I would go with a 338 AM with a 300 gr SMK at 3400 fps but other then that I would look at the 338 Edge or 338 Kahn with the 300 gr SMK.

    You simply can not deny that the big 300 gr bullets hit harder on game at extreme range.

    Will the 7mm AM cleanly kill a bull elk at 1500 yards, without question YES!! But, when you are pushing things to that range limit, I would feel better with a big 338 magnum and thats why I designed my 338 Allen Mag for just such uses.

    As far as user friendliness and high performance, Shawns 338 Edge is very hard to beat with a 300 gr SMK.

    Good Shooting,

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  5. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    I think Roy and Kirby are trying to tell you the same thing. A 12# rifle is fine to about 1000yds for someone with decent skills but past that your gun really needs to be a dedicated long range gun unless your skills are very very good. Just shy of 1K I hit a very mature bull with the 200 gr Wildcat in about as tough of a spot as a bullet will ever hit (assuming you only take a decent shot and don't try to go the long way through) and it certainly appeared to me that even if the bullet had traveled another 500 yds before impact that it would have broken the shoulder. I asked kirby to build me a 1500 yds gun and he and I made sure that the gun was good to 1500yds. The last thing I told Kirby as I left his shop was that my skills might not be polished enough to take the gun to its limits. But I think the gun will easily go to 1500 yds and I am making plans to get more long range practice. I think it will be several years before I ask Kirby to build me a 2000 yd gun. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Secondly, I would agree with Roy that a quality gun whether from Kirby or Shawn is a dream to shoot. I took the load Kirby recommended and never even tested a different load. I think maybe in March or April I might work up a few loads for 160 ABs and 175 SMKs but that is more of an excuse to just shoot the gun than any real need. I may also try to see what kind of groups I can get from the gun now that the barrel has about 30-40 rounds down it and I have access to a bench instead of a cactus patch. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    I would not disaagree with any of the 338 fans over killing power but I am a 7mm fan and I got what I "wanted" and am happy. My money and my happiness.

    You can look at what I did with the 7AM and what Shawn did with the 338 Edge at very similar ranges and very similar sized animals and both of them behaved just about the same. They just don't flop right over. Shooting alone in not so great light, neither of us could see our hits. Very accurate guns and very good bullet placement but the animal just doesn't flop over. I could never have made the second shot that Shawn made but there are very few people who could. You can also read the story from Goodgrouper of the 1308yd bull and see that bull behaved the same way. Now I think GG's gun is in the weight range you are talking about but not very many of us can/do spend as much time with a gun as he and Shawn do.
     
  6. lovdasnow

    lovdasnow Well-Known Member

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    Wild Bill...thanks for your input. after reading what Kirby had to say below about weight I might be heading toward a lighter 7mm AM, and then later (couple years) build a heavy 338 based gun.

    no i havn't had my action trued, so that will be included in this whole thing, and I will get a new stock as well.

    good luck on your project, be sure to let us know how she works out for ya, thanks again.
     
  7. lovdasnow

    lovdasnow Well-Known Member

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    Roy in Idaho...thanks for your 2 cents.

    I hear ya on your frustrations with trying to get something to shoot that just won't. Thats why I'm heading this direction, because I love small groups, and I don't have the time to mess with crappy shooting guns. working up load after load to find the same "ok" results. I'm ready for a shooter!

    thanks again...jon
     
  8. lovdasnow

    lovdasnow Well-Known Member

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    Kirby..
    your welcome, your 7MM AM is hard not to consider with that 200 gr wildcat.

    thanks a lot for your insights here, they were definatly helpful.

    after you talked about weight it kind of conviced me that I almost need 2 guns eventually if I want a carry gun, and a 1000+ yd gun.

    I think I would like to start with the 7MM AM in a lighter gun, and then eventually build a heavy dedicated long range shooter.

    How is the 7MM AM for brass prep? I don't want to spend a lot of extra time at the bench. Is it just sizing down, and then fireforming?

    also, what do you think about those carbon wrapped barrels?
    do you like em, or would you steer me toward the lilja? I would only get one to save weight not because of how they look.

    thanks a bunch, oh...how far out are you on your work?

    thanks
     
  9. dakor

    dakor Well-Known Member

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    You might even want to look at a 7mm RUM or 7mm STW if you are looking at going with a 28inch barrel. I am pushing a 180 berger out of my STW at 3125fps with ease I am sure a RUM would add another 100fps or more with ease as well. Mine has a 28inch Broughton 5c 9 twist on it and if you run the numbers on the berger it has the energy to kill an elk at 1500 yards. My rifle weighs just about 12lbs scoped and it will shoot 7inch groups at 875 yards off the bipod. I am not trying to take anything away from any cartridge but you mention a 28inch pipe and your concern about forming brass with either of these you just load and go.
     
  10. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Lovdasnow,

    Well, If you look at my current big game hunting arsenal, it consists of two rifles, a 9.5 lb 7mm AM for anything out to 1/2 mile and a 15.5 lb 7mm AM for anything out to 1300 yards or so.

    That said, the only reason my heavy rifle is a 7mm AM is because my BAT receiver did not get here in time to build my sub 16 lb 338 Allen Mag which will be up and running for next season.

    Next year, my two rifle pair will be the light weight 7mm AM and the sub 16 lb 338 AM for anything out to 1500 yards, nearly identical to what you are thinking of doing.

    Ballistically, the 7mm AM is just flat out obnoxious as far as how little the wind effects it. I had a 1000 yard BR shooter up in the shop the other day looking at my hunting rifles and I had all of my support "crap" there with them including my hard copies of my drop and drift charts.

    He was quietly reading the charts and then after a few minutes he loudly stated "B___ S___!!!""

    I walked over and asked what the problem was and he said the was no way I was only getting 35" of wind drift at 1000 yards in a 10 mph cross wind.

    Ya see he uses a 30-378 Wby loaded with a 200 gr Accubond to 3300 fps and he said his drift was somthing like 60" at that range with a 10 mph crosswind and I agreed with him that sounded about right!!

    He said they are the same bullet weight at the same velocity so why the big difference so I headed over to the loading bench and grabbed a 200 gr Accubond and a 200 gr 7mm ULDRBBT and put them in his hand and said that is the only difference and the reason for the very low wind drift.

    He still was not completely convinced so we started playing with the ballistic programs. I plugged in all of his data for his 200 gr Accubond load in his 30-378 and came up with 59" of drift at 1000 yards.

    Plugging in the numbers for a 338 Edge with the 300 gr SMK we came up with around 47" of drift.

    For the 200 gr ULD RBBT loaded to 3300 fps we came up with 35" of drift.

    What really got hit attention though was bullet energy. The 7mm AM and 338 Edge are both nearly identical at 1000 yards with right at 2200 ft/lbs of energy. The mighty 30-378 Wby with the 200 gr Accubond has dipped to right at 1400 ft/lbs of energy, still plenty for big game hunting but nothing in the class if the 7mm AM and 338 Edge which are again, nearly identical.

    He really got upset when he found out his 30-378 Wby was burning 20 grains more powder then the other two rounds and was getting ballistically beaten up as well!!!

    Now I am not saying that this is because of the design of the 7mm AM or the 338 Egde, its because we designed these rounds to be used with high BC bullets at good upper end velocities. It is true that any 7mm chambering from the 7mm STW to the 7mm RUM will get you vastly superior performance using the 200 gr ULD RBBT as apposed to the conventional bullet weights and designs.

    Same is true for the 338 calibers. If you put a 300 gr SMK in any chambering from a 338 Wby up to the 338-378 or 338 Kahn you will get dramatically higher performance then with conventional weight bullets.

    Some bullets perform on game better then others at long range so that is a consideration as well to keep in mind but again, its more a matter of what bullet you use then what chambering you have behind it.

    If the rifle is built well and you load good ammo, you will get great results at long range if you are up to the task.

    I have not had alot of experience with the ABS barrels but the few I have chambered have shot extremely well. Personally I guess I am a traditionalist at heart and use all steel barrels.

    Case prep for the 7mm AM is relatively simply, neck down, fireform either with live fire or corn meal method, trim to length and shoot. I design my Allen Magnums as big game rounds so no neck turning is required unless you want to take a very slight shave off just to even things up. I personally do not turn any of my necks!!

    By the way, the guy with the 30-378 ordered a 7mm AM that day!!!

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  11. lovdasnow

    lovdasnow Well-Known Member

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    great story Kirby!! thats funny, and also amazing how that thing just flat shoots.


    I am going to go with your 7mm AM. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Just working on what stock I want, and I'll need to talk with you about barrel choices. I want to go steel, but just wondering best choices as far as accuracy vs weight, etc...

    can you finish barrels if I went with something like a matte black barrel with polished flutes?

    Should I order stuff and then send it all to you in a big package, or what do you reccomend?

    thanks again, jon
     
  12. MagMan

    MagMan Well-Known Member

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    Here are some pics of what the 200's do out of my 7mm RUM that Kirby resurrected. I was able to get them shooting 3125 fps. My numbers don't look exactly like Kirby's but there not far off.
    [​IMG]
    200 yards

    [​IMG]
    1000 yards, this is the best group I've ever shot but most average 5" on good days.
     
  13. lovdasnow

    lovdasnow Well-Known Member

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    thats some good shooting, always like to see pics of groups.
    can't wait till I'm throwing some 200's downrange outta the 7AM.
     
  14. TMR

    TMR Well-Known Member

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    lovdasnow....

    You can't go wrong with the 7mmAM in either the light or heavy configuration...My 7mmAM the Kirby is building will probably end up around 14lbs....I carried my 13.5lb 243AI around quite a bit this year. It wasn't that bad. I did slow down a little, but still when I needed to be steady at long range, it was rock solid. I have a 7mm STW Sendero that is pretty good, but the Allen Mag will launch the heavy, high BC bullets close to 300 fps faster. I think you will be happy with the 7mm AM. Good luck on your choice...