Nosler long range accbond and my experience.

[MMERSS]

It can help but you still have to be close enough to the spine to get the desired effect. Good expansion will always increase your odds vs one that pencils through.

Yep, I hear you! I had a similar high shoulder shot on a 4x4 Mule deer about 12 years ago. An A-Max shot from a RUM anchored the deer. I noticed copper fragments on top of the spine when cutting out the straps. I was glad to have that bullet for this situation. However, this bullet/RUM combo would not have been my choice for elk. It will be interesting trying the LRABs anticipating somewhat of a mix between the A-Max and AB. I won't be shooting the gun next year but a family member will.

Two guns for short to long range hunting? I'm already doing this in most cases when hunting from a hide. You never know what distance the animals will come out. Two different bullets in the two different guns, yes.

My only one gun all around choice for antelope to elk at all ranges, the 338 with 300 OTM. I would consider a 300 LRAB but we all know how available this bullet is, about as available as some of the Bergers right now.

 

[LaHunter]

To the OP, thanks for the thread. Good info.
What I have read about the ABLR, is that it is supposed to release lots of energy and expand quickly and retain about 50% of its original wt. It does seem like the bullets did exactly what they were designed to do in this situation. The head on shots that you referred to seem to have exhibited very good penetration, traveling from the brisket area through the entire body, and stopping under the skin at the hind quarter area. The picture of the mushroomed bullet looks good to me. One hunter's experience with one animal is probably not enough data to draw reliable conclusions. There is a lot of interest in these new bullets and I sure would like to hear more first hand experiences. I can't find anywhere that has them in stock yet. I am assuming the accuracy of these bullets at the range was the same or close to the Berger bullets accuracy??

 

[WildRose]

Yep, I hear you! I had a similar high shoulder shot on a 4x4 Mule deer about 12 years ago. An A-Max shot from a RUM anchored the deer. I noticed copper fragments on top of the spine when cutting out the straps. I was glad to have that bullet for this situation. However, this bullet/RUM combo would not have been my choice for elk. It will be interesting trying the LRABs anticipating somewhat of a mix between the A-Max and AB. I won't be shooting the gun next year but a family member will.

Two guns for short to long range hunting? I'm already doing this in most cases when hunting from a hide. You never know what distance the animals will come out. Two different bullets in the two different guns, yes.

My only one gun all around choice for antelope to elk at all ranges, the 338 with 300 OTM. I would consider a 300 LRAB but we all know how available this bullet is, about as available as some of the Bergers right now.

You know a guy can pick up an off the rack light weight mountain type rifle in any number of calibers that will get the job done to 400yds and carry the cannon in the Eberlestock till you get to where you want to set up which makes for a very viable solution the the lack of a magic bullet. Take a 6.8spc, .270, .260, 6.5 of any sort along with the cannon and you have all options covered.

It's either that, or or we are stuck with setting minimum range limits or accepting the fact that at closer ranges were are at least at times going to have bullets blow apart and give us unsatisfactory performance.

I sincerely feel for the poster who started this thread. Those of us who have piled up dozes or hundreds of game animals over the years have all at some point seen animals who appear to be very well hit run off a ways and or require follow up shots to put them down. It just happens no matter how diligent we are.

When you add the long range component to the game you are simply increasing the likelihood of this happening and us trying to make one rifle and one load work for everything.

It's not something to get upset with each other about.

 

[TOM H]

There would be some "members attempt to silence, control, or criticize others for sharing and expressing their personal experiences and opinions". As previously stated, that's the real source of conflict on this Forum. I think no member appreciates Posts they sense are efforts to control, intimidate, attack, and/or ridicule - in response to sharing their personal experiences and their opinion about that experience.

Your post in response to POP's was the beginning of that process. It only serves to stifle members' free expression of their experiences, which is a primary reason members come here. We like to read about others' experiences in the effort to learn something beneficial and applicable to our own own long range hunting pursuits.

Are you for real! Have you ever read a post from POP were he's tested Berger on hunting or others or posted any problems he had with Bergers? this is a long range hunting site

You think what I posted was an effort to control etc you better look at POP post you can go back 500 and about 400 are items for sale and he's been good source for firearms,scopes etc.

You guys get funnier by the minute.

 

[Len Backus]

Let's everyone chill out and totally drop the subject of POP and the other site.

Right now.

 

[luke]

In attempt to get back on the topic of the lrab. I have not used them but have been thinking about it. I try to read as much as possible and look at as many pics that is out there. This does not convince me that I should or should not use the bullet but it does help to understand what to expect if I do use them. Thank you to all that have contributed useable info on this and the other threads about this bullet. I personally would like to hear more. Good or bad doesnt really matter just the honest truth of how the bullet works at any and all ranges.

 

[Kennibear]

I second Len's motion. Stop with the POP shots. This is about bullets and game shots.

I have garnered more info on bullet performance on game on this single thread than 40+ years of hunt's end campfire talk. This is invaluable to me as there is very few places that carry this much impute. Stay on topic, PLEASE!!!

About the two gun solution, I was thinking more along the lines of a revolver in 44Mag or 454 Casull. I have about 100K rnds through my S&W M28 and can hit the boiler room of an elk 10 for 10 out to 150yds. If I were to look at a second rifle WildRose is correct as there are very good & light short actions out there. Also a TC Encore or other break maction single shot can go < 6lbs w/ scope. Just raised this question because WildRose made a valid point and I agree that it can work.

CoHunter14:

The surgeon used living animals which couldn't happen today. FBI uses a computer model w/10% gelatin threaded w/ water filled plastic tubing. Haven't seen one of those on four hooves up in the mountains. Could be a different story where you live though... LOL

Science back then was still pretty good and without posting the article I can tell you they were VERY meticulous and thorough. Not much you could improve except maybe high speed video. They x-rayed every shot.

Just the ramblings of an old hunter....

 

[MMERSS]

I sincerely feel for the poster who started this thread. Those of us who have piled up dozes or hundreds of game animals over the years have all at some point seen animals who appear to be very well hit run off a ways and or require follow up shots to put them down. It just happens no matter how diligent we are.

Reviewing the analysis in Duncan MacPherson's book Bullet Penetration, Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma, there are some similar observations posted by big game hunters. Although the book is focused on handgun ammunition and human sized targets at much closer range, there is good discussion with the analysis in this book and a correlation to what hunters are reporting with big game trauma and incapacitation. Similarities I have noted.

1. Increasing the weight of the bullet analytically creates greater wound channels.

2. Larger caliber bullets that are practical create more wound trauma than smaller calibers judged as "adequate."

3. There is no "magic bullet."

If we are discussing one caliber and weight of the LRAB as adequate however the incapacitation results from this particular bullet not meeting our personal "incapacitation" expectations, shouldn't the discussion also be meaningfully geared toward heavier and larger caliber bullets of same make?

I wonder if this post would have been different if the deer was anchored with the 210 LRAB shot from one of the 300 Mags?

There is a reason why I choose my all around one gun from antelope to elk from close range to long range as a .338 shooting a 300 gr (even if they turn out being two different guns and bullets). It's not that other options are not "adequate", it's because of the noticeable increase in trauma and incapacitation with my hunting experiences. Each of us will ultimately have to determine our "adequate" use in the field and live with the results whether meeting our expectations or not. Is a bullet to blame for not incapacitating an animal yet performing to design? Are there other contributors such as impact velocity, shot placement and angle, CNS trauma or lack there of, etc. Practically heavier and larger bullets create more wound trauma. Could this decision practically assist a hunter with their decision in the field?

 

[WildRose]

I second Len's motion. Stop with the POP shots. This is about bullets and game shots.

I have garnered more info on bullet performance on game on this single thread than 40+ years of hunt's end campfire talk. This is invaluable to me as there is very few places that carry this much impute. Stay on topic, PLEASE!!!

About the two gun solution, I was thinking more along the lines of a revolver in 44Mag or 454 Casull. I have about 100K rnds through my S&W M28 and can hit the boiler room of an elk 10 for 10 out to 150yds. If I were to look at a second rifle WildRose is correct as there are very good & light short actions out there. Also a TC Encore or other break maction single shot can go < 6lbs w/ scope. Just raised this question because WildRose made a valid point and I agree that it can work.

CoHunter14:

The surgeon used living animals which couldn't happen today. FBI uses a computer model w/10% gelatin threaded w/ water filled plastic tubing. Haven't seen one of those on four hooves up in the mountains. Could be a different story where you live though... LOL

Science back then was still pretty good and without posting the article I can tell you they were VERY meticulous and thorough. Not much you could improve except maybe high speed video. They x-rayed every shot.

Just the ramblings of an old hunter....

Bullet technology has taken many giant steps forward since that era which is why today we can get much better and more predictable results/data.

 

[bigngreen]

I still would like to see someone whack something with an ALR at a 1600 fps impact velocity and see how it behaves.
We can dig perfectly mushroomed bullet out of game and the bullet did little damage to the vitals other than push some tissue out of it's way allowing small wound channels, to me it's the timing of when this mushrooming happens that counts.

 

[Broz]

We can dig perfectly mushroomed bullet out of game and the bullet did little damage to the vitals other than push some tissue out of it's way allowing small wound channels, to me it's the timing of when this mushrooming happens that counts.

BINGO!!!! Gee, you speak with experience, you must actually hunt and not just talk like you do.lightbulb

Jeff

 

[WildRose]

Reviewing the analysis in Duncan MacPherson's book Bullet Penetration, Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma, there are some similar observations posted by big game hunters. Although the book is focused on handgun ammunition and human sized targets at much closer range, there is good discussion with the analysis in this book and a correlation to what hunters are reporting with big game trauma and incapacitation. Similarities I have noted.

1. Increasing the weight of the bullet analytically creates greater wound channels.

2. Larger caliber bullets that are practical create more wound trauma than smaller calibers judged as "adequate."

3. There is no "magic bullet."

Energy imparted and expended into the target is they key. Compare a small canoe and large boat traveling the same speed side by side.

Which causes the greater wake (disruption) through the water?

Bullets make a concentric or conical shaped wake through the animal they strike as well. All else being equal the larger bullet is going to deliver more energy and cause more disruption.

If we are discussing one caliber and weight of the LRAB as adequate however the incapacitation results from this particular bullet not meeting our personal "incapacitation" expectations, shouldn't the discussion also be meaningfully geared toward heavier and larger caliber bullets of same make?

Only if we are all shooting the same caliber and weight. Keep in mind that there are differences in construction particularly thickness of the Jackets when you talk about different weight/calibers. The ideal the designers are looking for is to get consistent performance throughout the spectrum and that's not easy.

I wonder if this post would have been different if the deer was anchored with the 210 LRAB shot from one of the 300 Mags?

Possibly but again, he didn't get a solid hit on the critical anatomical structures necessary for a DRT first or second shot. You still have to strike or come very close to the heart, major vessels, spine etc to get the desired effect. There is more margin for error with the bigger, higher energy projectile than the lighter, but still you have to put it in the "kill zone".

There is a reason why I choose my all around one gun from antelope to elk from close range to long range as a .338 shooting a 300 gr (even if they turn out being two different guns and bullets). It's not that other options are not "adequate", it's because of the noticeable increase in trauma and incapacitation with my hunting experiences. Each of us will ultimately have to determine our "adequate" use in the field and live with the results whether meeting our expectations or not. Is a bullet to blame for not incapacitating an animal yet performing to design?

Again, the importance of shot placement.

Are there other contributors such as impact velocity, shot placement and angle, CNS trauma or lack there of, etc. Practically heavier and larger bullets create more wound trauma. Could this decision practically assist a hunter with their decision in the field?

Those all have a significant influence on the final result.

 

[cohunter14]

I still would like to see someone whack something with an ALR at a 1600 fps impact velocity and see how it behaves.
We can dig perfectly mushroomed bullet out of game and the bullet did little damage to the vitals other than push some tissue out of it's way allowing small wound channels, to me it's the timing of when this mushrooming happens that counts.

I agree with you big, but it sounds like the OP actually had it mushroom very early in the process based on his reported entry holes. That is why more info from the OP would be helpful, but I think he took the questions we had for him as criticism. It's too bad that the simple questions from those of us trying to learn more about different bullets tend to de-rail these bullet threads in a way. Stuff gets too personal when in all reality we are all simply here to learn, for the most part at least. There are also those that are here to share their knowledge, which is always appreciated

 

[HuntFarther]

cohunter14,

What were you trying to get cleared up, or looking for information on?