Gun build - Scope help PLEASE

[pyroducksx3]

I just realized how bad we hijacked this thread sorry teampete! This is supposed to be about a scope that you wanted for your project. I think you made a good decision going with the 300 win mag in savage longrange hunter. It comes with an adjustable cheek piece, muzzlebreak, accustock, accutrigger and savage is known to have accurate rifles. If you are unsure of your range then the 200 accubond will be a great bullet to start with using retumbo or h-1000 for powders. If you know that your shots will only be over 300 yards then the berger or amax would be good choices, same powder. For a scope I recommend the vortex viper in either the 44mm objective for 399$ or the 50mm for 459$, either way get good one piece bases and quality rings, you probably will end up spending 200+ for the rings and bases. For a cheaper base the EGW are supposed to be great. Rings I would look at nightforce ultralights or Vortex (which are made by seekins) or just seekins themselves. You can order the vortex scope, rings, and bases from midway. If you went with seekins rings you would have to order from them. Goodluck and enjoy the setup

 

[cabinfever]

Pyro

180 grain bullet vs a 210 grain bullet is not a apples to apples comparsion. And the fact that you have to bump up to a 210 grain bullet, to compete with the 7mm in the engery department ought to tell you something. In addition, why use a 200-300 grain bullet when a 180 grain is adequate for almost anything allbeit african dangerous game. The .30 cals will naturally have a small wind bucking advantage over the .284's but not by much. If you think the 300 wm is superior to the 7mm in the 1000 yd race, call up any professional long range hunter like the guys from greybull precesion, best of the west, gunwerks, Len Backus here on this site, not to metion countless F class and bench rest paper punchers and they will all tell you that there "go to" guns for 1000 yard work, are all 7mm and 6.5's. Why? Because they understand 1000 yd ballistics. I don't wish to get into a ****ing match over what caliber is better. I think the 300 wm is an excellent round, but to say it's a flatter shooting round with more efficent killing power at 1000 yards is simply not true. The law of Physics don't lie!

 

[teampete]

Thanks for all the help everyone. Everyone has a different opinion and it is tough for me to decide which is better for my application. I dont plan on shooting 1000 yards but I want the ability to do so if I have to. I know shots on this hunt will be 400 yards plus so I want to try out Berger Bullets. Right now I have the 300 win. on order but can change it. You all make me second guess chooisng a 7mm lol.

As far as the scope I really like the Viper PST the more I look at it. What the difference with the PSt and the regular Viper. I am kind of leaning away from the Zeiss because it seems like a regular scope to me without all the bells and whistles like the PST. I bet the glass is comparable also.

 

[WV Sendero]

Thanks for all the help everyone. Everyone has a different opinion and it is tough for me to decide which is better for my application. I dont plan on shooting 1000 yards but I want the ability to do so if I have to. I know shots on this hunt will be 400 yards plus so I want to try out Berger Bullets. Right now I have the 300 win. on order but can change it. You all make me second guess chooisng a 7mm lol.

As far as the scope I really like the Viper PST the more I look at it. What the difference with the PSt and the regular Viper. I am kind of leaning away from the Zeiss because it seems like a regular scope to me without all the bells and whistles like the PST. I bet the glass is comparable also.

Zeiss glass is among the best there is. I'm not saying the Viper isn't good but Zeiss is hard to crowd. Mine has target turrets and Mil-dot reticle and I wouldn't hesitate a bit to buy another Zeiss esp. for $700. Stick with the 300WM you'll be fine. The 300WM has killed many elk and is a great choice. Go with the 210 Berger or 200 Accubond and you will be in good shape.

 

[teampete]

What is a mil dot reitcle and how do you use that? I am thinking of just using target turets and forgeting the whole idea of a custom turret because it will only work in one ideal situation. I figure with good balistic data I can turn a target turret into basically the same thing right from the balastic data from a give program like G7?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Thanks for all the help everyone. Everyone has a different opinion and it is tough for me to decide which is better for my application. I dont plan on shooting 1000 yards but I want the ability to do so if I have to. I know shots on this hunt will be 400 yards plus so I want to try out Berger Bullets. Right now I have the 300 win. on order but can change it. You all make me second guess chooisng a 7mm lol.

As far as the scope I really like the Viper PST the more I look at it. What the difference with the PSt and the regular Viper. I am kind of leaning away from the Zeiss because it seems like a regular scope to me without all the bells and whistles like the PST. I bet the glass is comparable also.

Don't second guess or worry about your choice. To say that a 7RM is superior in ballistics to a 300 WM is to believe in VooDoo. The comparisons being made between the two are no comparisons at all. I shot, reloaded and hunted with a 7RM for years and the best velocity I could get with a 160 Partiton was 3000 and that was a warm max load. The fastest load Hodgdon shows for a 175 bullet is 2800 fps with Retumbo. The fastest oad Nosler shows for a 175 bullet is 2850 with H1000 (in a 24" bbl). I would like to know how cabinfever is getting 3000 fps with a 180 Berger in a 7RM?

I get 3190 with a 180 E-Tip in a 300 WSM (which has slightly less capacity than a 300 WM) and 2935 with a 210 Berger using RL17.

Teampete, there are some rules of thumb to learn about ballistics.

#1 Case capacity = power... a littler case will not give more or even the same power that a bigger case capacity will.

#2 A smaller cal of equal capacity will not shoot the same weight bullet that a larger cal will shoot that weight bullet. let alone shoot equal with a larger case. i.e., the 7WSM and 300 WSM.... No way on earth will a 7WSM shoot a 180 bullet as fast a 300 WSM, not even close... and no way on earth will a 7RM shoot a 180 bullet as fast as 300 WM which is a larger capacity.

That being said, sometimes you may gat a rare combination of powder, bullet, primer, throat and bore that will give exceptional results, but when comparing apples to apples there is no way that a 7RM stands up to a 300 WM.

You made a good choice and sleep well.

 

[teampete]

Montana - Thank you for that. I always thought that the 300 win mag being a bigger caliber would shoot the same sized bullet faster. I am glad to know I was right. I think the 300. will be better because it gives me a little more cushion for those longer shots and should have similar long range accuracy and be flat shooting.

 

[WV Sendero]

What is a mil dot reitcle and how do you use that? I am thinking of just using target turets and forgeting the whole idea of a custom turret because it will only work in one ideal situation. I figure with good balistic data I can turn a target turret into basically the same thing right from the balastic data from a give program like G7?

This link will help explain some of the uses of a Mil-dot better than I can: User Guide. In short it is a reticle that can be used to adjust for bullet drop and wind. It can also be used for range estimation should you get in a bind and not have your rangefinder handy. Most ballistics programs will give you the option of printing drop charts and wind dope charts for your load in mils so you have a quick reference for putting this reticle to use.

 

[teampete]

Sendro - Does that mean you do not mess with adjusting the target turrets if you are just using the scope reticle? I had a nikon BDC reticle and it did the job on my elk hunt and it sounds similar to the mildot. I want to know a balastic program will till you what to adjust the target knob to if you have all the balsitic info, elevation temp, etc? Will the balastic program say turn the target knob to X and the cross hairs will be perfect for a given yardage?

 

[pyroducksx3]

Pyro

180 grain bullet vs a 210 grain bullet is not a apples to apples comparsion. And the fact that you have to bump up to a 210 grain bullet, to compete with the 7mm in the engery department ought to tell you something. In addition, why use a 200-300 grain bullet when a 180 grain is adequate for almost anything allbeit african dangerous game. The .30 cals will naturally have a small wind bucking advantage over the .284's but not by much. If you think the 300 wm is superior to the 7mm in the 1000 yd race, call up any professional long range hunter like the guys from greybull precesion, best of the west, gunwerks, Len Backus here on this site, not to metion countless F class and bench rest paper punchers and they will all tell you that there "go to" guns for 1000 yard work, are all 7mm and 6.5's. Why? Because they understand 1000 yd ballistics. I don't wish to get into a ****ing match over what caliber is better. I think the 300 wm is an excellent round, but to say it's a flatter shooting round with more efficent killing power at 1000 yards is simply not true. The law of Physics don't lie!

It was apples to apples in that the 300 win mag is capable of using heavier bullets. So I compared the two at their true potential, not at the same bullet weight. In the same weight the 7 will have better BC's that is a fact. The 300 can use heavier bullets and there by deliver more energy. The seven is possibly in fact flatter shooting but to say that the 6.5 and 7 Rem mag are pefectly adequete at 1000 yards for elk is borderline irresponsible! I know the videos show that they kill elk at that distance and Im not saying a 7 mag or 6.5-284 wont kill an elk at 1000. I am saying there are much better choices to do so. John burns says, I believe, that he feels that the 7 rem mag is the largest caliber that most people can shoot comfortably without a muzzlebreak. You seem to make comparisions to the 1000 yard mark by referencing F class shooters and Benchrest paper punchers. But we aren't just talking about which one gets to 1000 yards with the least recoil and best ballistics. We are talking about killing an elk at 1000 yards and this is very different then just holes in paper. We just have differences of opinion you think because it "can" work its fine, I hope every animal you shoot at 800 yards plus dies cleanly and that you never lose an animal. But well thats not good enough for me, I believe we owe it to the animals we hunt to be sure that we are using enough gun to cleanly harvest them everytime. So we aren't going to agree at all on this issue. If punching paper is the goal then I give you the 7 rem mag or 6.5's may be better. And to be honest if I wanted to hunt elk at over 800 I would build a 338 RUM, lapua or edge. And just to put all the cards on the table I hunt with a 7 rem mag. I had a tikka t3 lite in 300 wsm but it just wasnt fun to shoot. I have a rem 700 in an hs stock that is much more comfortable to shoot, so all your points are not lost on me they are why I switched to the 7. I think we just disagree on the potential of what the round is consistantely capable of. I think on elk in the bullets I prefer 650 is about it. The 300 win mag with a muzzlebreak will be comfortable to shoot and throwing 200+ grains bullets will be more effective and appropriate for elk. I hope this clears things up so team pete can have his thread back and we can help him choose the scope thats best for him.

On that note teampete. I think the vortex pst would only be a better choice than the viper if you wanted an illuminated reticle, FFP, and zero stop ability for your turrets but I havent used a pst and this is only speculation or my opinion. What is your overall budget for this anyway? I ask this becasue you will still need to get reloading dies, brass, bullets, powder, possibly a pack?, bipod, sling. So 600$ for a rifle, 200$ +- for bases and rings, ??? $ for scope. Also with the mil or ballistic reticle questions you had, a scope with a reticle in the second focal plane, the value that the mils or hashes have , change with the power level the scope is set on. Maybe you knew that but you would be surprised how many people dont understand that.

 

[WildRose]

What is a mil dot reitcle and how do you use that? I am thinking of just using target turets and forgeting the whole idea of a custom turret because it will only work in one ideal situation. I figure with good balistic data I can turn a target turret into basically the same thing right from the balastic data from a give program like G7?

Here's a good no nonsense tutorial on it.

Mil-Dot

 

[WV Sendero]

Sendro - Does that mean you do not mess with adjusting the target turrets if you are just using the scope reticle? I had a nikon BDC reticle and it did the job on my elk hunt and it sounds similar to the mildot. I want to know a balastic program will till you what to adjust the target knob to if you have all the balsitic info, elevation temp, etc? Will the balastic program say turn the target knob to X and the cross hairs will be perfect for a given yardage?

It is similar to a BDC but it actually can do more for you. Yes, you can compensate for drop with the reticle or the turrets whichever you prefer. Look at the ballistics program from this site's home page and you will see what I mean about giving your drop chart in mils. That program will also give the drop in clicks, inches, and MOA so you can choose which you are the most comfortable with.

 

[teampete]

As far as the Viper PST the only thing I really want that the regular viper doesnt have is the FFP. I like being able to adjust the power and have the crosshairs be the same. Did you say a mildot does that?

My budget is about 700 on scope MAX. I really would like to spend less but I dont know if possible. I usually get deals on equipment. For exampl I can get the Viper PST 6-24 for 650.00 but i think they may be on backorder. I dont plan on reloading right now. I am finishing up school so i really dont have the time or money. I have a guy at work that will reload for me though at a decent price. A bipod I havent decided. I like shooting prone of my back pack. i did that last year. I have 2 badlands packs so im covered there.

 

[teampete]

Does a mildot defeat the purpose of a target turret or custom turret? How would I go about using a target turet for out to 1000 yard hunting. Vortex has a similar reticle to the mildot correct? It is there EBR MOA reticle? How do they differ?

Vortex Optics - Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP EBR-1 MOA Reticle