Gun build - Scope help PLEASE

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by teampete, Mar 29, 2011.

  1. teampete

    teampete Well-Known Member

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    Hey everyone, I have learned so much from all of you guys on this forum. I am just getting into long range hunting. I just found out today I got drawn for late rifle bull in AZ. I imagine the shot to be anywhere from 400 to 1000 yards. Last year I had the tag and shot a bull at 500 yards but could have shot some other bulls from further ranges. Therfore, I am building a new rifle for long range shots (1000 yds). I have ordered the Savage LRH in 7mm Rem Mag. I really love this caliber and hope this gun is a shooter.

    Now I need help with the scope choice and reticle. I can get a brand new Zeiss Conquest 6 -20 x 50 with target turrets for 700 dollars. Right now this is the scope I am leaning towards. I am also considering the Vortex PST or higher end leupold. I can get the viper PST 6-24 for 650 dollars. What is difference between the ciper pst FFP and the regular vortex? Few questions. How do the zeiss or vortex scopes track? Will the scope be able to adjust to 1000 yards with custom turrets? Which reticle would be the best for long range hunting and the use of a custom turret? Would I be better off just using the target turrets that come with the gun? I know this is a lot of questions but I need the help. For 700 dollars is there a better scope? Also is there any chance I can find a better scope in this price range. Also what base and rings so I need for long range. Price doesnt really matter because I know base and rings are very important.

    Thanks in advance guys. I really appreciate all your help.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2011
  2. pyroducksx3

    pyroducksx3 Well-Known Member

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    to be honest if you are expecting shots at elk over 700 yards the 7 rem mag really isnt the best choice, sorry. For scopes you really have to define what you want. MOA adjustment, ballistic reticle type, price range things like that. Nightforce is always a go to scope for these long range shots becasue of its reliability in adjustments. Ziess are nice but I like MOA adjustments and Im pretty sure zeiss are IPHY, if you get custom turrets it doesnt much matter though. For bases I like nightforce, seekins, EGW in that order and rings tie between nightforce ultralights, seekins and then I guess warne and tally. Some other scopes to look at are the vortex scopes and nikon monarch, thier monarch x looks pretty good. I think leupold makes great products but they are priced pretty high for what you get but other s love them so go to a shop and start looking and see what you like. I was really impreseed with the value of the vortex viper.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2011

  3. teampete

    teampete Well-Known Member

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    Should I go with 300 win mag? For the scope I dont know what i want. I am new at this. Im in the 700 dollar range but I usually can get items cheaper than street price. I want a scope that will be dependable, clear and easy to adjust with either a custom turret or tactical/target turrets? I really need help in understanding all the different terms involvoed with a scope and what I need to potentially shoot animals at 1000 yards.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2011
  4. pyroducksx3

    pyroducksx3 Well-Known Member

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    300 win mag would be a better choice if you are looking at specifically shooting elk past 700 yards but play around with ballistic programs and see what kind of energy you get I think even the 300 win mag comes up a little short for elk at 1000
     
  5. pyroducksx3

    pyroducksx3 Well-Known Member

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    Im sure others will chime in though. I am a big 7 rem mag supporter but I limit elk to around 650, with the bullets I use. I am not a big berger fan, if I set up specifically for only long range hunts then yes berger but I dont and Im not sure where my shots will be so I go will go with the accubond or scirocco II. I choose the 7 becasue I like the similiar balistics it gets to the 30 cal with lighter bullets which means less recoil. I also however primarily hunt deer so the energy level requirements are different. If I wanted want elk past 800 Im going with a 338 RUM, lapua, or edge, inside 800 the 300 / 338 win mags are probably fine but Im speaking theoretically as I have no expierence with elk and long range hunting. But like I said Im sure others will soon be giving better advice and with expierence to back it up
     
  6. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    If you really expect to be shooting an Elk at between 800-1000yds, I'd build either a 7mm STW or a .338 RUM or .338 Lapua.

    You're going to have a real hard time putting enough energy behind the 7mm Rmag to get a solid kill at that range, it's even a stretch with the 7UM or 7mm STW in anything below the 162gr.

    You will likely do far better with the .338's due to the higher weight/bc.

    Scope wise there's a super nice Leupold Mark 4 4.5-15x50 IR on the classified section of this site right now for 900.00.

    The conquest however will work for you.

    You definitely do need to get out and do some shooting at least at 50yd increments between 500-1000yds under varying weather conditions with your new rig before heading out hunting with it.

    Shooting out to 600yds with any of the high velocity calibers doesn't take much skill, practice, or expertise. When you get beyond 600yds though, you're in another realm completely.

    Only a handful of shooters are actually capable of consistently placing a shot in the "kill zone" at ranges beyond that even with the nicest custom rigs and none of them became that proficient with one or two boxes of shells and an afternoon of practice.

    Remember this isn't just a target, it's a live game animal and we have a responsibility as hunters to ensure we are taking responsible shots that we are capable of making.

    Otherwise we're taking a very significant risk of simply wounding game and leaving it for the coyotes and that's a waste of a very precious resource.

    Honestly it's very rare that one cannot using just basic stalking techniques work into at least within 600yds of most game animals under most circumstances.
     
  7. teampete

    teampete Well-Known Member

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    Well I may have to limit my elk hunt to 800 yards then??? The only calibers I can get are 7mm or 300 win mag. Deer and other az game can be out to 1000 yards I guess. So is there really much difference in the 300 vs 7mm then for probable distance to kill an elk. I do plan on using berger vlds if that helps any
     
  8. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    Beyond 600yds on Elk Sized game between the two I'd go with the .300 win mag?

    Why are you limited to only those two calibers? Are you on a tight budget buying a factory stock rifle or having one built?

    Yes there's a considerable difference in energy and BC between the 7mm and 7.62 bullets fired by the 7mm Rem Mag and 300 win mag.

    Pull up any ballistics chart and compare the performance of the two cartriges.

    Then got to Berger and Hornady's sites and look at the difference in BC's between the 162-180gr 7mm's and 7.62 168-210gr bullets.

    http://www.hornady.com/store/searchammo.php?mode=search&main_cat=250&categoryid%5B%5D=259&categoryid%5B%5D=394&categoryid%5B%5D=373&x=12&y=16

    http://www.bergerbullets.com/Products/Hunting Bullets.html

    EDTA:

    Found this old article by Chuck Hawks that might be of some help to you.

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/game_range_caliber.htm
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2011
  9. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

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    Congrats on your draw. If I had the choice between a 7RM and 300 WM for elk hunting I would pick the 300. The 300 will plain and simple be able to do more damage with a larger cal bullet. If you want to be hunting at extended ranges you should be handloading which should give you more flexibility in choosing powder and bullet for optimal LR shooting. You can't really just set an arbitrary distance limitation like 600 or 800, etc. The performance of your load will determine it's effective range and I use the minimum expanding velocity for the bullet to determine that. For elk, I would pad that velocity a little.

    For a scope, you might look at the Vortex PST's.

    Good hunting,

    -Mark
     
  10. teampete

    teampete Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the help guys. I changed the calliber to 300 win mag. My funds are limited. I am only 22 years old and starting my long range career. I am getting the savage lrh for less than 600 dollars out the door. I have researched a lot and don't see any way I can get a better gun for that price.
     
  11. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    Makes perfect sense. My taste in personal weapons has always outstripped my budget as well.

    Figure out what the best glass you can afford is, and then spend another 100-200.00 on it.

    Get the weapon to the best gun smith you can find and get it pillar bedded and free floated.

    Then take whatever spare change you can scratch up and get out and shoot the damned thing as much as you can at varying ranges between 500 and 1000yds noting the variables in wind and temp and what you have to do to correct.

    No one becomes even a competent long range shooter without a hell of a lot of practice and to become proficient can take years of practice with good instruction, and lots of study.

    Best of luck.
     
  12. cabinfever

    cabinfever Well-Known Member

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    I respectfully disagree. The 7mm is more than ample on elk out to 1000 yds. I personally think anything over 7mm is overkill on any animal you'll hunt in the lower 48. Never been a fan of the ultra mags for this very reason. Why deal with the recoil when it's not necessary. My idea of the perfect rifle is one that will maintain enough energy at a 1000 yds to kill up to elk size game, with the least amount of recoil. The 7mm is that kind of cartridge. For example, compare the ballistics of a 180 gr nosler accubond out of 300 wm vs a 180 berger vld out of a 7mm mag both with a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps. At a 1000 yds the 180 7mm still has a MV of 1725 fps whereas the 180 300 wm has a mv of 1431.7 fps. The 300 will drop 275 inches at a 1000 yds whereas the 7mm will only drop 234 inches. Heres the kicker: The 7mm 180 has 1189 lbs of energy at 1000 yds whereas the 300 wm 180 has only 819 lbs at 1000 yds. Don't get me wrong the 300 wm is a great cartridge and my current long range record kill is with a 180 nosler AB out of a 300, but the 7mm is the clear winner at a 1000 yds.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2011
  13. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    And I've kille 500lbs hogs with a .204 Ruger but I'm not going to recommend it to a rookie for a hog gun.

    I know any number of people including myself that have killed 600-1000lbs game at 600-1000yds with the 7mm mag and 7STW.

    But shot placement becomes even more critical when energy is minimal and very few people are capable of doing so precisely at those ranges.

    As hunters, particularly when we are bringing new people along in the sport I just feel obligated to recommend the "best" weapon and round for a one shot kill every time, not just when an expert marksman is behind a custom long range weapon.

    Recoil is simply not a significant factor with most of the mag's and ultra magnums in the era of modern muzzle brakes either. Not for anyone over 140lbs anyhow.
     
  14. cabinfever

    cabinfever Well-Known Member

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    so explain to this young guy why the 7mm mag has more energy at a 1000 yds than the 300 wm, yet you are recommending the 300 wm. (see edited post above). And since the 300 wm drops over 3 feet more than the 7mm at a 1000 yds, wouldn't you agree that there is a lot more room for error which could result in a miss, or worse....wounding a critter. See above post for ballistic comparsions. i agree that the 300 wm in not a bad choice, but it is certainly not the best.