Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"
GG,
Wait a minute fella, It may be true that I only have 300 rounds down my 338 AM but I have several, SEVERAL thousand rounds down a few 257 AX, 6.5mm AX, 270 AX, 257 AMs, 6.5mm AMs, 270 AMs and 7mm AMs and all have had corn meal fireforming through their barrels and all are still shooting very well or shot to the point they have to be rebarreled but not before a good number of rounds were down their tubes.
Also, concerning the comment about you putting more rounds down a custom 338 then I have, I am not offended by this at all but you simply have no idea that is true. Remember I have been throwing lead out of a 338 Kahn long before I started playing with my 338 AM. My current Kahn has just shy of 800 rounds down the tube and it is still a 3/4 moa rifle at 1000 yards and yes it formed cases with corn meal as well. I also do not load it to red line pressures. This is a key to increasing barrel life. I know you run your 338 Lapua Improved pretty hard. YOu have to to get the numbers you are getting and in the Lapua case, I would to!!! I get 2950 fps in my Kahn with the 300 gr smk. THe case capacity of this round will allow 3150 fps but case life will not last with the soft norma cases. This is a blessing to be honest because if the 338-378 parent case could handle the pressures that the Lapua case could, I would probably run it up that high as well and get the 3150 and also get the shorter barrel life you are seeing.
You are also not the only one that shoots every day. Not by a long shot. Many of us here on LRH do this for a full time living. I type that laughing because most top end smiths I know spend more like 60-70 hours in a five day week working and then throw in another 10 to 15 on the weekend. Last year I logged 14,296 rounds loaded over the year in my ammo log book. What ever gets logged also gets shot. I have logged over 10K rounds every year since 1998 so that gives you a bit of an idea how many times the trigger gets pulled. Now sure many of these are handgun and smaller rifles but point being, some of us shoot ALOT for a living. Not saying I shoot as much as you, but I burn my fair share of gunpowder.
I am not trying to flame you or question your comments in any way, I have never been one to do that but you did bring my name into this debate and used it in several instances where one could possibly get quite offended if they did not know the guy on the other end making the comments like I know you.
I know you mean no disrespect and none taken but I would almost gaurantee that I have many more rounds down the four 7mm AMs I have owned then you have down your two custom 338 rifles. Probably several times more from all the load development I have done with all the different bullet weights.
This is not a "chest thumping" comment, but realize there is some siginficant experience behind my comments as I know there is from yours as well.
This just seems to be getting out of control and things may turn for the worse and I would hate to see that. There is no need.
No one denys that best case senerio would be to have formed cases ready to load with full tilt pressures. That, unfortunately is not cheap but I am working on it for my customers. It is a major investment to get your name on a **** case and as a small shop, its not like Remington coming out with a new round and putting their stamp on it. Takes time and more importantly $$$$$$. Working on both as we speak.
As far as fireforming, live fire fireforming is not a viable option with this round so the debate for this specific rifle should not even be taking place. For other smaller wildcats with less extreme case transformations, sure, there are very good options but not here. It is not like a 338 Lapua Improved that easily forms with live fire fireforming.
Your comments about the abrasive properties of corn meal are well taken but can you tell me that corn meal is more abrasive then 135 grains of partially burning H-50BMG? What is harder on the throat, low temp corn meal at 1000 fps or VERY HOT, very abbrasive H-50BMG at MUCH higher velocities and pressure??? Sure there may be some abrasion occuring, happens anytime anything gets pushed down the bore but in this case, there is no option and in my experience, I would rather go with corn meal over anything else with this round.
It is certainly not the bullet I am worried about with fireforming and shortening barrel life. Its the 135 to 150 grains of hot burning powder in the throat that concerns me for the sake of forming a case.
Then there is the safety issue. I do not know if you have experiences a collapsed shoulder when fireforming a case. As much as you have done I am sure you have.
THis is unpleasant with conventional cases, with the 408 based wildcats it can be flat out dangerous. I just will not recommend a process of forming cases that has the potential for dangerous results, not to mention even the chance of scoring the chamber at best. AND it will, trust me, been there done that!!!
As far as your comments about your 338 barrel going south after 300 rounds. Your uncle told me there were several times that the barrel got extremely heated. Could this be a contributing factor in short barrel life. ALso with your 338 Thunder, I know how much you have tested that round. I also know how hard it is to keep a barrel cool while doing load development or long range testing. There are many factors that can increase or shorten barrel life which are in the hands of the rifle shooter.
My point being, I am not basing my experience off of my 338 AM. Its off the many thousands of rounds from my other Allen Magnums and Allen Xpress wildcats where i get my experience base from. To say my opinion is based off 300 rounds with my 338 AM could really be taken as a slap in my face.
Now I know you do not mean it that way because I know you, I have worked with you many times and I respect your skills and knowledge base. I just ask that you measure your comments a bit more carefully so someone does not take what you type as an offensive comment when it is not intended as such.
All that said, I agree, this post needs to stop. When bullets get in the air Steve and BJ, start her up again and let us know how she works.
In the mean time I will keep working on the formed case situation so we will not have to worry about this conversation again!!!
Best wishes to everyone and please do not take any offense from this post, none was intended as I know none was intented in other posts that included me in them.
Kirby Allen(50)
