300 Varminter Update

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Wildcat, I am trying to figure this thread out. Are you saying that you are trying to get 4000 fps out of a 300 short mag? I looked at your specs and looked like all you did was tighten the neck. And it was mentioned maybe changing the rifling. If you want that kind of velocity then you need to start with a case that will safely get that kind of velocity. I have chronographed several short mags and none will approach the kind of velocities you mention safely. I am not trying to harras or condemn you. I am just trying to figure this thing out. It takes a 300 wby class cartridge to get you into the 4000 fps range with those bullets. The short mags are good for the velocity you can get out of a short action rifle but they are not designed to shoot with the wby line of magnums and will not even approach them safely. You probably had a good rifle before you shot the throat out of it trying to get 4000 fps out of something designed to shoot much slower. Let the gun shoot where it wants to shoot safely and set your click cheat sheet. If you must get 4000 fps then buy some sabos with the 22 caliber 55 grain bullets in there. That is the only way you will do it safely.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Desert Fox,

Thanks for the realistic information from someone not wearing rose colored glasses.

I can swallow 3750 fps. Possibly even 3800 fps with somewhat of a decent case life. Over that it seems the results are exactly what most on this board suspected and in fact that seems to be the trueth.

Case life, very short with loads near 4000 fps. VERY SHORT!!! In fact loosening at times on the first firing, that tells me the pressures are well over 70,000 psi to get this primer pocket loosening. Probably over 75,000 psi.

Richard himself throws all his brass after three firings, I would bet a rifle that when he loads those cases for the third time, the primer pockets are already pretty much gone.

Now back to my main comment all along, how can anyone promote these loads when the fact remains that if they are chambered in a factory 300 WSM rifle, it would produce nothing short of very dangerous situation.

Weither you agree or disagree with the performance level of this rifle or the quality of Richards rifles, that is all besided the point. The only real point is that these loads are not safe in all 300 WSM rifles and that is a dangerous thing, no questions about it.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[lerch]

I am not trying to stir the pot here anymore but i was just thinking about this. Its been a while since i turned any necks on brass but i remember how much of a pain it was. if the brass is toast in 2-3 firings do you really wanna do that every time on new brass????? seems like alot of work for very little time spent getting to enjoy it

 

[wildcat]

Ok, let me try to stop this hole thing. Can we all agree the 300 Varminter will push the 110 and 125grn bullets at 4000fps. Yes, I know, there will be higher pressures, however, it is capable of doing it. I will admit, that if you run the higher pressure loads, your brass will be toast after two to three firings.

This whole thing got ugly when someone said Richard was doing something unsafe. I took offense to that, because Richard was not able to defend himself. I think you guys would do the same thing if your rifle builder was insulted like that.

Also, I never said I was going to start out with the hottest loads possible. I will work up to a load I think is going to give me accuracy and velocity, if that happens to be 3900fps, than I will take that load. I know I will be able to push the 110grn V-Max at a safe 3900fps without really getting into those real high pressures. I will try the hotter loads, and if I ruin the brass after three loads, then I will just throw it away and buy some new brass. Hey, it's my rifle and if I want to shoot it hot, I will. However, I am going to shoot what ever load gives me the best accuracy and velocity togather.

P44, you don't have to defend me. I brought this on myself and knew what I was getting into by posting this type of build. I also know most of the guys are just trying to help, and I can respect that. Anyhow, I thank you for your support.

W.

 

[Patriot44]

Kirby, you're a joke about this safe issue. Had you not insulted Richard, I would not even be posting. You are very un-professional in the gunsmithing world to attack another gunsmith about something that he is not doing. You don't think Richard gives his customers the correct info on how to load and shoot the rifle safely. Richard clearly states on the 6mmBR.com blog, that in order to get these types of velocites, this rifle has to be built to certain specifications. Wildcat, has stated that on numerous occations on his posts. Richard, can't control what someone does outside of that or what idiot misconstrues information incorrectly. How do you know what someone is doing with your rifles and cartridges once it leaves your shop. You don't, so is it you fault if someone does something unsafe, NO. What authority do you have to make such comments, about Richard. Seriously, who do you think you are. If I were Richard, I would sue your *** for SLANDER!!! Some people on this site have put you on a pedestal, and I have watched your ego get a little too big throughout the last couple of years. You made a comment about how I could never afford one of your rifles. If you only knew what I could afford it would blow your mind. You would never build a rifle for me because of the following reasons;
1. Your Rifles and Allen Mags have never had one article written about them.
2. You don't even have your on web page. I guess you can't afford one.
3. Know one outside this board has ever heard of your name or your Allen Mags.
4. Your rifles have never won any Bench Rest Championships.
5. Your Rifles have never won any 1000 yards Competitions.
6. Your rifles have never set any accuracy records.
7. YOUR NOT PROFESSIONAL!!!
Those are all true facts. However, the man you said is promoting an unsafe concept has done all of those things mentioned above. You have not done any of that. Your comments about Richard promoting an unsafe project, NOT TRUE, is very un-professional in the gunsmithing world. I guess that's the type of guy you are. You talk about someone behind there back on this site because you know your KIRBYITES (BountyHunter, AWESOME name for these guys) will come to your aide and that makes you feel powerful. Your a real class act, however, try that on a site like 6mmBR.com and see what happens to you. STOP BEING A FREELOADER AND CHEAP WAD! GET YOUR OWN WEB PAGE INSTEAD OF USING THIS SITE FOR FREE ADVERTISING. Very un-professional.

Patriot44

 

[TuckerT]

I am new to this site, but I have been reading on it for a long time. I know the history of this post. I am not picking anyone's side, I would have to agree with the information regarding pressure issues and brass life problems with the hotter loads. However, the comments made about Richard promoting an un-unsafe concept are a little un-professional and that should have not been said. Wildcat, was defending his gunsmith, and I don't see a problem with that. I think many of you would do the same thing. I would say both sides have made very valid points about the project.

Wildcat, I hope your project works well for you. I have heard excellent things about Richard's rifles. I am sure it's going to be a shooter.

 

[Fiftydriver]

I never personally attacked Richard. I said its unsafe to recommend this level of pressure in a factory chambering that can be chambered in far more factory rifles out there then custom and be unsafe in every one of them. Simple point, and its a fact, not opinion.

I have no doubt that Richard gives his customers the correct information to use. Again, that in no way prevents the accidental chambering of one of these hot loads in a factory 300 WSM rifle. Again, you are missing the point in your attempt to personally attack me. Nice try but your making yourself look silly.

There are no factory Allen Magnum chambered rifles are there, how can a round for one of my chamberings make it into a factory rifle as there are none chambered for them. That is my point, please read this again until you understand it because your arguement is again, pointless!!!

If one of my chambered were offered in a factory rifle that was designed to handle 65K psi and I was recommending +75,000 psi loads, my recommendation would be just as unsafe, I do not do that, that can not happen, your arguement is pointless and unfounded.

YOu can not sue for slander for something that is true...... Think about it. If I got sued, I would get every major rifle maker that chambered a 300 WSM and put them on the stand to ask their opinion if their rifles would safely handle these loads. THere would not be one that said yes. THen I would get every ballistic expert from every company that offered load data for the 300 WSM and ask them the same question, again, every one would side with me and the suit would get laughed out of the courtroom.

Again, I am not saying or have never said Richards rifles are dangerous, nor that the loads used in his rifles are dangerous in those rifles, only that those loads would be dangerous in factory rifles, please read this again or until you understand this. Do you speak english? what are you having so much trouble understanding this?

I have NEVER made any comments about you could not afford one of my rifles. THat is a flat out lie my friend and you better put up the facts before you make comments like that. Get the proof here that I said you could not afford one of my rifles. Your not going to get away with this crap here, that is a lie and you have been called on it, produce the proof, NOW!!!

Now to answer your statements:

1. Your Rifles and Allen Mags have never had one article written about them. How sure are you about this comment? I would do some research before you make stupid comments about things you do not know.
2. You don't even have your on web page. I guess you can't afford one. I do not have a web site yet, why, because I am currently +50 rifles behind and right now my customers have to wait more then 8 months to get one of my rifles and I am not so greedy that I want to make them wait 2 years for one of my rifles. Again, you look like a fool. Appearently 10 years ago, there were no good riflebuilders out there because no one had a web page. I have way more business then I can handle and have for the last three years and as such have no desire to have a 2 year back log for my customers.
3. Know one outside this board has ever heard of your name or your Allen Mags. Again, what a load of crap. I have customers from Snipershide, 6mmbr, 24hour, Accuratereloading and Handloaders.com. As well as many from here on LRH.com. You are a close minded fool and know nothing of what you speak of but please keep making youself look silly. Right now 50% of my customers come from places other then LRH and many have never heard of LRH until I turn them onto it and all have thanked me greatly for pointing them toward this great resource.
4. Your rifles have never won any Bench Rest Championships. Don't build BR rifles. How could then win a BR match if I do not build BR rifles?
5. Your Rifles have never won any 1000 yards Competitions. I will refer you to #4 answer again!!!
6. Your rifles have never set any accuracy records. I will refer you to #4 AGAIN!!!
7. YOUR NOT PROFESSIONAL!!! That is your incorrect and uneducated opinion and I could find 500 great reviews for your opinion.

If I were such a freeloader, why would not everyone on LRH be asking me to be kicked off the board? Because someone agrees with me or I agree with them, why does that mean they are Kirbyites.

Is every customer of Richard Franklin a Richardite? Is every one of Shawn Carlocks customers a Shawnite? Are every one of Chris Mathews customers a Chisite? Are everyone of Darrell Hollands customers a Darrellite? Are every one of Greg Tannels customers a Gregite.

If given a chance, EVERY one of these mens customers and friends would back them up 100%, that is no different then me and I am sure no different then you and your friends, appearently I have more friends here in LRH..... Hard to imagine why that is.

YOu are a waste of my time and you have lost this debate because you bring nothing to it.

Again, its unsafe to recommend a 75,000 psi load for a factory chambering that could possibly be chambered in a factory rifle where it would be, WITHOUT QUESTION, DANGEROUS.

If you can manage to read and comprehend this, maybe you will understand my point.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[joecool]

I came to this forum from 24 hour I heard about Kirby's Allen Mags and wanted to know more, when I got here Kirby was working on his .338 Allen and I liked what I seen, I believe I was the first one or one of the first to order one of his .338's. And he wasn't even done testing it.

I don't shoot bench rest or competition, what I do is hunt elk and I have killed a lot of them and I hunt deer, I have a ranch that has way to many predators on it for my liking so I had Kirby build me his .338 Allen, This gun is simply amassing nothing and I mean nothing is safe on the ranch unless I see fit too not kill it, It flattens elk, deer and the predators don't stand a chance.

Kirby is building my third rifle now, KIRBYITE!!! No he just builds a nice rifle, I'm sure others do too, I just choose to have Kirby build mine he more like a friend now than my gun smith. And he always helps out with the load development.

 

[jwp475]

Patriot44, Wildcat

What part of this post are you 2 have trouble grasping?



04-21-2008, 01:33 PM
Desert Fox
Senior Member
Find Me on the Map Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 336

I have no dog in these fight but I thought I could share some info that I've gathered from a friend of mine, who is close to Richard Franklin. He own and shoot one of these rifle. He also hunt grounhog with Richard a few times a year, and he considered him a close friend. This is what he told me regarding the 300 WSM Varminter. He admitted that, if you want to prolong the life of the brass, you need to load the 125 Nosler with 73 grain of VVN550 at around 3750fps. You can get to over 4K using 75 grain of powder but the brass is toast by 2nd or 3rd firing. His rifle experienced loosening of primer pocket even on one firing with 75 grain of powder when shooting here in California, so he kept his velocity at 3750. He also aluded that Richard toss his brass every 3 firings from his own personal rifle. You can use Remington action on these chambering but velocity must be kept below 3800fps. So there you have it gentlemen. I hope these help clears things up.

Guys, we should be all adult about these. Let's keep it civil and not to denigrate each other. Don't force Len to exercise his nuclear option.
__________________
To achieved the maximum possible accuracy, all variables must be removed or at least minimized

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

I am not taking sides in this because I don't know any of you and haven't been on here in years. But I reread what fiftydriver had to say at the top of the page and can't find anything deserving of this. What he said is correct. Fifty may not have been building rifles very long, but I have for over thirty years and I can't see how any form of a short mag can be safely loaded to those velocities. I can look at a case and tell you about what you can expect out of it. That comes with a lot of experience. Also with a lot of experience you understand that about 90% of what you hear is BS by someone tooting their own rifle. Maybe we all need to get a cold beer and chill out.

I am a short mag fan and love them although I have never hunted with one. I am obviously missing out on some velocity secret someone needs to enlighten me on if you can get strong 300 weatherby velocities out of a short mag in any form. I want to learn the technique so I can apply it to my big 338's. I might get 4000 fps out of my 338-378 with a 200 grain bullet. I have chronographed short mags and they all came in between the '06 case stuff and the standard magnum stuff. I didn't think they were designed to compete velocity wise with the standard mags but fill a short action niche that needed filling. If a guy wanted weatherby velocities why would he buy a short mag in the first place. All my work was done before the short mag came out and I am by no means an expert on the short mag having only chronographed a few. So some of you guys that shoot them all the time tell me what velocities you are getting and are some loads approaching standard mag velocities. I just want some good answers because I am considering a light backpack gun right now and if I can get wby velocities out of a short mag I can save some weight. Short mag guys let me know what they will actually do with good handloads. Thanks in advance.

 

[Ballistic64]

LTLR, I just chronoed some 190 VLDs in my 300saum this weekend,the results are below but it is from a 27" tube.No pressure signs and easy bolt lift.

59.5 gr H414
HI-2922
LO-2894 (first cold bore shot)
AV-2910
ES-28
SD-8

1-2894
2-2915
3-2905
4-2916
5-2922
6-2908
7-2906
8-2921
9-2909
10-2908

I havent tried any faster,as this load shot five shots slightly under 3" at 600 yds,I was pretty happy.

 

[James Jones]

WOW , I can't believe that I'm keeping up with this thread.

this is almost as good as pitting to 15yr olds against eachother in my KravMaga class!!

 

[goodgrouper]

5. Your Rifles have never won any 1000 yards Competitions.Patriot44

Whoa there cowboy. Back that pony up a bit. I've won several 1000 yard competitions around here with a rifle Kirby chambered.

Sounds to me like someone has been harboring some bad feelings for Kirby for awhile and they're starting to fester.
Perhaps this thread has run it's course?

 

[Supermag]

Wow, this thread has turned from bad to worse. I don't have a dog in this fight either, I'm just trying to figure out some things that have been claimed for my own knowledge and am sharing what I find. I've tried to stay neutral about this arguement but Patriot's comments have pushed me over the edge. I do not think that putting information out that a factory chambered cartridge can be pushed to those extreme pressures and velocities is even remotely intelligent and is completely unsafe. I don't care if you want to do it, especially if you know and understand the risks involved but to not admit those risks even when confronted is unethical. I'd call anyone on this be it Wildcat, Kirby, Shawn, Nate or Len and would expect the same done to me.

The personal attacks of Patriot on Kirby and anyone that disagrees with him is sickening. I don't care who you are or who you don't like or like there is no call for this on this forum or any. They are stating facts and opinions on the subject not personally attacking you or even Richard Franklin. They are questioning Richard Franklins methods and saying that what he is promoting is can be unsafe. I've been on his website and could not find anything that said that loading this way in a stock gun is extremely unsafe (it will chamber in any production 300 WSM chambered rifle, correct?). I'm sure Richard knows this and wouldn't advocate this load in any rifle that was not designed to be shot with this load, BUT he doesn't say it on the website or in the short blog I was able to find on 6mmBR. The people with the knowledge to point this out should point this out no matter who says it, so that some one without the knowledge won't mistakenly try it without knowing any better. Now back to the personal attack on Kirby, I only know him from this site and haven't had the good fortune of even shooting one of his rifles yet. I know that Kirby does take the time to visit this site and not only tell us about his hunts, projects and work but also will offer advice to those who ask for it. I find that impressive that he cares enough about the sport and the people in it to help out those of us who are just getting started and those who are farther along. While Patriot only seems to be involved on this site to start fights, jump into those arguements that aren't of concern to him and escalate them. I will be sending a message to Len asking for Patriot 44 to be banned and invite all who feel that same as I do to do the same. It is people like Patriot that destroy good forums and I don't want that to happen to this site, at least not anymore than what Patriot has done to it already.