Why not lazzeroni rifles?

[IdahoRedneck]

Idaho redneck ,,,,,,,

I have no doubt in my mind that the 210 & 230gr Bergers are FINE bullets capable of extreme accuracy ,,,,, I am just not sure yet that they are accurate when pushed real fast at Warbird velocities ,,,,,,,,

Like I said previously, I have already tried the 210s once with less than stellar results when I drove them at WARBIRD velocities ,,,,,,, but I am going to try them again along with the 230s in my own personal new rifle ,,,,,,,

and as I have also stated in the past, the overall market for a 230gr bullet in the Warbird rifles that I have built since 1995 is limited (including the SAKO TRG-S Warbird rifles)) ,,, those rifles all have 12 twist barrels and that is not going to work with 230gr bullets ,,,,,,

so there is my dilemma currently when servicing the thousands of Lazzeroni/Warbird rifles already out there, out of the 50,000 rounds or so of loaded Warbird ammo that I sell each year, how many rounds of that would be 230gr Bergers, even if I WAS able to get them to shoot out of my new 10 twist barrel ? ,,,, maybe 500 rounds to specialized shooters such as yourself ??

you can see where this is going right ? ,,,,,,,, but there is certainly NOTHING wrong with a shooter such as yourself having me or any other rifle builder, chamber you up a WARBIRD, with 10 twist barrel (or 9.5 twist)) and then you can load your own 230gr stuff from Lazzeroni brass & dies ? ,,,,,,

ALSO ,,, the only reason I have been coming off the handle on this thread, is that I grow very tired of having to debate this crap with Mr Montana and Kirby after they have spent the last 12+ years, running their mouths about how the Lazzeroni product is so inferior to the stuff they are pushing ,,,,,

I have listened to enough of their animosity, jealousy, BS and exaggerations to last me a lifetime ,,,,, not sure about the rest of you ,,,,

Wow, great id love to see those results, you may be right about the velocity thing but these new hybrids and their shorter bearing surface have been showing outstanding results when others have tested them at what you call overloaded pressures.........one thing remains sure is that the warbird pushing a 230 hybrid would be bad medicine. I think thats why so many of us would like to see ya do it. You pushed the envelope back in 95, Why not do it again as shooting the heavies is realativly new but the market is growing every day why not try to stay in front, Youd be out a little time and some bullets but the things youd learn would be beneficial to all of us.

 

[rooster721]

Wow, great id love to see those results, you may be right about the velocity thing but these new hybrids and their shorter bearing surface have been showing outstanding results when others have tested them at what you call overloaded pressures.........one thing remains sure is that the warbird pushing a 230 hybrid would be bad medicine. I think thats why so many of us would like to see ya do it. You pushed the envelope back in 95, Why not do it again as shooting the heavies is realativly new but the market is growing every day why not try to stay in front, Youd be out a little time and some bullets but the things youd learn would be beneficial to all of us.

I hate to get involved with all this, it hasn't been the prettiest of threads I've kept tabs on, BUT.. that bolded part of the quote above wouldn't be a bad idea John*

I have a TRG-S (now fully customized & rebarrelled, different twist etc etc) but still chambered for your Lazz Firebird.. love the round. However, I do believe in heavy bullets (just like the others that have been posting here.) Heavy bullets CAN be tuned to shoot tight groups as well as shoot fast.. personally had Barnes LRX 168's (heaviest THEY offer) up to 3350 recently, and still was 3/4" groups @ that speed.. I backed off though for 1/4" groups, but that's another story...

Bottom line, Lazz cartriges can do it John.. & you I'm sure know that. If I was you, I'd definitely be proving it up and then "selling the results" There is definitely some merit to the guys' posts regarding "where the market is going and what shooters/hunters are demanding" outta their LR rigs* AND WHICH STYLE OF BULLETS ARE IN DEMAND FOR "LONG" RANGE

High BC and heavy for caliber is probably here to stay-- a guys gotta stay competitive that way--- of coarse, just my 2-bits. But those bolded statements up above are worth considering ...I say take the guys up on the challenge* It's the business you're all in, so might'as well right! ???

 

[Fiftydriver]

Kirby and Mr Montana ,,,,,

but regardless of which case you guys overload, to achieve your bragging rights to 3,172 fps with the .308 dia, 230gr Berger bullet, I would guess that you do NOT achieve minute of angle or less accuracy at 1,000 yards,,,, might not even be less than 2 minutes of angle ,,,,, am I correct ? ,,,,,,, ((that bullet is just too long to drive that fast & still retain accuracy ,, IMO)))

and we can all ROLL around in the dirt shooting if you think it will help, but unless you CAN achieve minute of angle or less accuracy at 1,000 yards with your favorite hunting rifle/load combo, then all of the ballistics tables, showing wind drift advantages etc, all just evaporate with that same wind ,,,,,,,,,

WOW, the more you type the less you show you know much about true long range hunting. You may know long range target shooting but that's sounds like its about it.

Did you really just say that we are likely not even getting 2 moa groups at 1000 yards with berger bullets....... I hope everyone that is reading this is NOT taking what John says as fact because he is so far off the facts its hard to comprehend that he is actually saying it in public.

Back when Berger had only the thin J-4 jacketed match bullet, yes they had a velocity ceiling of around 3200 to 3250 fps depending on twist and rifling design with the VLD bullets. Then came the issue with the Gen 1 300 gr 338 cal VLDs and berger went back to the drawing board to improve their bullets.

SINCE THEN, Berger has been sending me bullets to test in my Allen Magnums for the sole purpose to prove that they will survive launch velocities FAR in excess of anything your doing with your cartridges. I know for a fact that there are hundreds of guys out there shooting the 230 gr bergers WELL under 1 moa at 1000 yards. In fact, I have shot them ALOT testing my 300 Raptor at 3350 fps and they have held 1 moa accuracy out to 2000 yards, and yes, that was shooting off the ground, something I am sure you are not fond of.

Taking it to the next level, I have been, as have all of my customers, for the most part, been shooting the 300 gr Gen 2 berger 338 bullets at velocities from 3300 fps up to 3400 fps out of my 338 AM with extreme accuracy out to ranges WELL past 2000 yards.

Your products may or may not have been cutting edge in 1995 but they are FAR outdated now and the information your spreading as a supposed expert on ballistics is embarrassing. The new bergers can easily be launched to well over 3400 fps with no accuracy loss at all with a properly tuned load and rifle designed to use them with proper twist.

In all of our heated conversations, I have NEVER made any claims that your rifles were not quality nor that you were a poor shooter as you have just done. Your almost laughable! It would be funny if it were not for the fact that some on here actually are believing what your saying.

This is LONG RANGE HUNTING.com not Long range target shooting. We do not need to shoot groups, the purpose and goal here is to put a bullet through the vitals of any big game animal at any range we have proven to ourselves that we can be competent at making that shot, if its 500 yards that's your limit, so be it, if its 1000 yards, great, if its 1760 yards, that's awesome and yes there are several on this board that can make clean one shot, old barrel kills at 1 mile.

We do not shoot groups other then to prove a load and then we get out and do practical field shooting to fine tune drop charts and perfect firing solutions.

You certainly act like a lot of BR shooters I have delt with over the years, its their way or the highway and if anyone does something different, they are inexperienced fools that are nothing more then a waste of your time. LAUGHABLE!!!

The more you type the more you show your true colors. It has been that way from day one with you. Your purpose here on LRH is never to help anyone, only to push your products and that is sad. Now I am sure you will come back and say the same thing about me but that is again, SIMPLY LAUGHABLE at best.

Never once have I ever attacked your rifles or you as a shooter as you have just done. Seems you simply can not take ANY heat as you are the best on the planet and you make the only products that can drive a bullet over 3000 fps with any accuracy at all........ This is all very sad and a waste of time again. Still, I just will not sit back and let you puke your false claims all over LRH. I have invested WAY to much time in this site to let you come on here and say things that have NO basis in fact simply because those things you claim are not possible KICK THE HELL out of the performance your getting with your chamberings.

You say there are no cases that can do what your Warbird does, yet in the same breath almost you say that the Warbird is pretty much nothing but a beltless, conventional shouldered 30-378, AMAZING, what a break through.

Currently, your Warbird would rank in the middle of the performance ladder with what we are doing today. For true long range big game hunting its never talked about for good reason, simply put, its so **** easy to find a better option that will either match or exceed its level of performance and do so with less money invested. That is a fact and most on LRH simply know it to be a fact.

What a joke!! Keep talkin, your true colors shine through with every post you add.

 

[Fiftydriver]

High BC and heavy for caliber is probably here to stay-- a guys gotta stay competitive that way--- of coarse, just my 2-bits. But those bolded statements up above are worth considering ...I say take the guys up on the challenge* It's the business you're all in, so might'as well right! ???[/QUOTE]

After the comments he has made attacking my rifles and my shooting ability, not sure I would want to have this guy in my state, let alone shoot with him.

Shooting high BC, heavy, long bullets at high velocity is not a new concept. Maybe for John but we have been doing it for 20 years. It is not a TREND to use heavy, long, high BC bullets, its the best way, its been proven many, MANY years ago. Its why everyone that is serious about LR hunting use them, at least if they intend to hunt at ranges past 700-800 yards.

Not sure why we are trying to convince John of this. Its like we need his approval so that we believe again that what we have been doing for the past 20 years will actually work tomorrow when we go out to the range or hunting fields.

He makes one post about shooting a deer at +800 yards, congrats, there are hundreds of members on LRH.com that have done the same thing dozens of times with heavy, high BC bullets at high velocity and he acts like he is reinventing the wheel here.

Truth is, in spite of him saying he was the standard barer for performance, he is actually WAY behind the times. Roy Weatherby did the same thing John is doing now, only did it 60 years ago. Velocity kills but it falls on its face in the wind and at long range. He can SAY what he wants but physics is the only judge of the truth. He is not doing anything different, he is taking light bullets and flat out muscling them out to get flat shooting cartridges ment for use out to 800 yards.

Why do we have to talk him into testing what we already know is the best way to do things. Seems he would be the one that would WANT to keep up with the times but instead he claims he was the best in 1995 and still is.........

 

[rooster721]

Kirby,

What I was gettin' at was more a "focus a load on heavy bullets" suggestion in Johns case.. for the sake of his own customers (those like myself for example)

Obviously guys shooting the heavier/higher BC bullets are loading themselves and using handloads (and what Lazz-Corp does wouldn't make any difference to them). But guys that are buying & shooting his 50,000 factory loaded stuff (which were many times mentioned in this thread) maybe only shoot those lesser/smaller bullets because that's all they have available as options* ...my earlier post was intended as a suggesstion to John (from an actual Lazz shooter) As a suggestion to re-think and look past whatever the previous theory was behind using the lighter smaller bullets, and instead "pro-gress" and provide competitive product in an ever-evolving market. Simple as that. Again.. like yourself, it's the business you guys are in. (That) pro-gressing is supposed to be the driver of what all of you's are doing* ...ultimitely trickling down to us guys as the users an shooter of these cartridges & rifles.

So As a Lazz shooter to another Lazz shooter, or a Lazz to an Allen or what-have-you else... my opinion is merely to try "progress" things, and try help open blind eyes is all-- not trying to stir this pot worse (by ANY means)

Regards

 

[Fiftydriver]

Kirby,

What I was gettin' at was more a "focus a load on heavy bullets" suggestion in Johns case.. for the sake of his own customers (those like myself for example)

Obviously guys shooting the heavier/higher BC bullets are loading themselves and using handloads (and what Lazz-Corp does wouldn't make any difference to them). But guys that are buying & shooting his 50,000 factory loaded stuff (which were many times mentioned in this thread) maybe only shoot those lesser/smaller bullets because that's all they have available as options* ...my earlier post was intended as a suggesstion to John (from an actual Lazz shooter) As a suggestion to re-think and look past whatever the previous theory was behind using the lighter smaller bullets, and instead "pro-gress" and provide competitive product in an ever-evolving market. Simple as that. Again.. like yourself, it's the business you guys are in. (That) pro-gressing is supposed to be the driver of what all of you's are doing* ...ultimitely trickling down to us guys as the users an shooter of these cartridges & rifles.

So As a Lazz shooter to another Lazz shooter, or a Lazz to an Allen or what-have-you else... my opinion is merely to try "progress" things, and try help open blind eyes is all-- not trying to stir this pot worse (by ANY means)

Regards

My brother is a Lazz shooter. He has had great results with it, once we started doing our own load development. Have no complaints about it at all other then the silly 1-12 twist in the Warbird.

There is no practical difference between the performance of the Warbird and the 30-378 or my 300 Allen Xpress. That has been my point all along. IF he loaded the Warbird in a 1-10 twist rifle and shot the 230 gr bergers, he would get the same excellent results that I am seeing with any other 30 cal magnum in the same performance class. Still, its his way or the highway, to bad, he is missing out on a lot of long range hunting potential. That has been our point ALL along. Many ways to skin a cat but John simply can not accept that there are others doing the same thing or even getting better results then he is getting. If he really wanted to get the most out of his chamberings, they would all be loaded with heavy for caliber bullets. But it seems all of his chamberings are designed for bench rest shooting, not true long range hunting.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Signing off this thread for good now.

 

[LazzInc]

Kirby ,,,,,,

you are the laugh ,,, if you cannot consistently put 3 shots inside of an 8-inch circle at 1,000 yards with your hunting rifle, how in the hell are you going to consistently hit the chest cavity of a game animal that far away, no less a mile !??! ,,,, LOL

does lying on the ground help you get better at that ? ,,,,,,,,

I am not a bench rest shooter, I am a hunter and always have been ,,,,, I only shoot my hunting rifles along side the 1,000 yard bench rest guys to learn a thing or two from them, and get some real good practice for myself at 1,000 yards ,,,,,

that Tucson 1,000 yard range record I set in the early 2000s was done with one of my own bull barrel prairie dog rifles, in the Lazzeroni 264 short magnum called the Phantom ,,,, 142gr Berger, moly coated at 2,865 fps ,,,, nothing more special than that ,,,,,

putting a killing shot into the chest of a prized game animal at 1,000 yards should not be taken lightly ,,,,,,, it is not easy to do consistently regardless of what you are shooting ,,,,,

personally ,,,, as I said before, I am full up to the top with your BS ,,,,,,,

I will not be responding directly to another post that you make, regardless of the thread that it is on ,,,,,,

 

[LazzInc]

rooster ,,,,,,,

oh I hear all of you loud & clear ,,,,, that is why I built for myself this latest Lazz rifle with the 10 twist, I am going to put some of these bullets you are talking about to the test ,,,, and not just at 100 or 300 yards, but I will be right back out to our Tucson 1,000 range and see how they shoot ,,,,,,,

I am also building a new Lazz rifle for myself in the 8.59 (.338) Titan caliber, 10 twist and am going to compare the accuracy of my Warbird with whatever long bullet I end up shooting, to the 338 caliber 250gr, Sierra SPBT out of my Titan ,,,,,,

I am going to switch to the 300gr Sierra SPBT in my 9.53 (.375) Saturn Lazz rifle, and run that out to 1,000 yards,,,,,,,,

any of these three bullets will carry a huge amount of energy downrange and devastate the animal ,,,, now all that has to be proven is which one is more accurate for ME at 1,000 yards,,,,,,,