What is the best rifleing
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sable tireur
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I am not interested in an argument about this term 5R or any other public domain term you can come up with. This is the same argument used for the very same barrel makers for '416R' as a barrel steel. This was protected by the steel manufacturing company Crucible before they closed their business and that Mark was left unprotected. Now it is the common use for several formulas of steel used to produce barrel steel whether it is original or not.
Here is what the USPTO has to say about Trademarks and protection:
"Once you determine that the type of protection you need is, in fact, trademark protection, then selecting a mark is the very first step in the overall application/registration process. This must be done with thought and care, because not every mark is registrable with the USPTO. Nor is every mark legally protectable. that is, some marks may not be capable of serving as the basis for a legal claim by the owner seeking to stop others from using a similar mark on related goods or services. Businesses and individuals new to trademarks and the application/registration process often choose a mark for their product or service that may be difficult or even impossible to register and/or protect for various reasons. Before filing a trademark/service mark application, you should consider (1) whether the mark you want to register is registrable, and (2) how difficult it will be to protect your mark based on the strength of the mark selected. Note in this regard that the USPTO only registers marks. You, as the mark owner, are solely responsible for enforcement."
https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/BasicFacts.pdf
Here is what the USPTO has to say about Trademarks and protection:
"Once you determine that the type of protection you need is, in fact, trademark protection, then selecting a mark is the very first step in the overall application/registration process. This must be done with thought and care, because not every mark is registrable with the USPTO. Nor is every mark legally protectable. that is, some marks may not be capable of serving as the basis for a legal claim by the owner seeking to stop others from using a similar mark on related goods or services. Businesses and individuals new to trademarks and the application/registration process often choose a mark for their product or service that may be difficult or even impossible to register and/or protect for various reasons. Before filing a trademark/service mark application, you should consider (1) whether the mark you want to register is registrable, and (2) how difficult it will be to protect your mark based on the strength of the mark selected. Note in this regard that the USPTO only registers marks. You, as the mark owner, are solely responsible for enforcement."
https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/BasicFacts.pdf
I dont care about 5R for arguements sake either, the original question was which is better and I responded to a 5R cleans up better. I will bet I can line up one of my 3G 4G 5R and 6G with the same amount of rounds down the barrel and have anyone clean them and tell me which one was which without looking at the patch.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Just to add to this post, I have used everything from 2 grove to 8 grove barrels and different types of land designs for the different builds and found that the quality of the rifling and bore, made the most difference in accuracy. The different land designs have a place, depending on what you use it for and the number of lands also have their place depending on the bullets used. Chose the right number and design and if the quality is good you have a winner.
In theory, The odd number of lands should promote centering of the bullet upon engraving. This was once true in most cases when precision bullets, reamers, cartridge cases and general workmanship wasn't as good as it is today. Now, with precision of all components being much better there is no advantage one way or the other. This is where the quality comes in. The only grove count that I felt was/could be a detriment to accuracy was the 2 grove. all others worked fine if the quality was there.
Here is my assessment of preferred grove design and number based on my experience with each of them.
3 grove = Best for small fast calibers for velocity and durability.
4 grove = best for Gas operated rifles where a gas port has to be placed in the
center of the port so it can be placed in the center of the grove to stay away from the lands.
5 grove = best used in mid calibers where bullets are not extremely heavy for the velocity, The have a better chance of engraving well because the number of lands.
The angle of the 5 R lands make it less likely to foul, but with heavy bullets the possibility of less than perfect engraving is greater.
6 Grove = good all round performance and dependability, for large magnums using heavy bullets at high velocity's.
7 Grove = when you can find one, it doesn't offer any advantage over the 6 or 8 grove and is very expensive. It is also thought to be better like the 3 and 5 grove barrels but this has yet to be proven.
8 grove = is normally considered best for very large calibers with heavy projectiles that are hard to start rotating because of their weight. (350 to 600 grains) and get good clean engraving.
There may be exceptions to this, but when building an accurate rifle I have found this to be a good guide and good results 100 % of the time.
My 5 most accurate rifles hunting rifles will shoot under 1/10th MOA and wear 3 grove, 4 grove, 6 grove and 8 grove barrels. The worst shooting premium barrel
i have ever seen/had has been a 5 r and I contribute this to quality control at the factory not the land count.
This is just my experience with different designs and groove count rifling. And what I recommend to my friends that want to build a rifle.
J E CUSTOM
In theory, The odd number of lands should promote centering of the bullet upon engraving. This was once true in most cases when precision bullets, reamers, cartridge cases and general workmanship wasn't as good as it is today. Now, with precision of all components being much better there is no advantage one way or the other. This is where the quality comes in. The only grove count that I felt was/could be a detriment to accuracy was the 2 grove. all others worked fine if the quality was there.
Here is my assessment of preferred grove design and number based on my experience with each of them.
3 grove = Best for small fast calibers for velocity and durability.
4 grove = best for Gas operated rifles where a gas port has to be placed in the
center of the port so it can be placed in the center of the grove to stay away from the lands.
5 grove = best used in mid calibers where bullets are not extremely heavy for the velocity, The have a better chance of engraving well because the number of lands.
The angle of the 5 R lands make it less likely to foul, but with heavy bullets the possibility of less than perfect engraving is greater.
6 Grove = good all round performance and dependability, for large magnums using heavy bullets at high velocity's.
7 Grove = when you can find one, it doesn't offer any advantage over the 6 or 8 grove and is very expensive. It is also thought to be better like the 3 and 5 grove barrels but this has yet to be proven.
8 grove = is normally considered best for very large calibers with heavy projectiles that are hard to start rotating because of their weight. (350 to 600 grains) and get good clean engraving.
There may be exceptions to this, but when building an accurate rifle I have found this to be a good guide and good results 100 % of the time.
My 5 most accurate rifles hunting rifles will shoot under 1/10th MOA and wear 3 grove, 4 grove, 6 grove and 8 grove barrels. The worst shooting premium barrel
i have ever seen/had has been a 5 r and I contribute this to quality control at the factory not the land count.
This is just my experience with different designs and groove count rifling. And what I recommend to my friends that want to build a rifle.
J E CUSTOM
sable tireur
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- Oct 8, 2010
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While looking at a patch may give you some information regarding what is being cleaned, copper, carbon or some form of fouling, it has never been a source of information regarding what form of rifling is being cleaned. 
Carnac says:
In general though, we use borescopes or similar devices to more closely examine the tops and sides of the lands and the angle of intersection between the sides of the lands and the bottom of the groove. This is often where the difference between rifling forms can show a problem.
Have a great evening!
Carnac says:
In general though, we use borescopes or similar devices to more closely examine the tops and sides of the lands and the angle of intersection between the sides of the lands and the bottom of the groove. This is often where the difference between rifling forms can show a problem.
Have a great evening!
Wow! You gents have really gone at it during my alcohol-precipitated absence. Good reading. I am ever so happy I stayed out of it, though. I'm not here to honk-off anybody; I just want to learn about shootin' a long way.
I gave-away my two custom wildcats last week. Two handbuilt rifles, a fat Vortex and a smaller Vortex scope, pounds and pounds of various powders, hundreds and hundreds of .30-caliber and .358-caliber bullets, custom-made forming and reloading dies by Hornady and Lee, almost two whole bricks of magnum large-rifle primers, a number of special little tools I'd had made for reloading non-standard cartridges and a bunch of other little doo-dads I cannot now remember. Three Dewey rods for barrels up there around twenty-five and some inches. I figger about $15,000 to $17,000 to a friend from high school. We met in July 1975, so we have a long history together. He suggested I become a trucker in January 1993; have been one since September 1993. Over 2.5 million miles, with an A+ safety record.
I just got tired of all the bullschumer required to go out there, set it all up, shoot abysmally, take it all down, drive home, carry it all in, put it all back into the respective places, clean the guns and wonder why I shot 2" groups from a scant 100 yards. I finally just said to hellsinki with it. I gave the stuff away and don't miss it.
My next thing is going to be a 6.5mm Creedmoor. The offerings by Bergara look pretty good to me. The Premier and Pro models have caught my eye. I'm lefthanded; I like that Bergara offers LH rifles for the rest of us. The Bergara actions copy the Remington M700 footprint, so there are a ton of stock options. Got my eye on an MDT CSS-XL-LGBTQ thing. Can't remember the exact designation; I'll worry about that when it comes time to buy the rifle and the chassis...
I gave-away my two custom wildcats last week. Two handbuilt rifles, a fat Vortex and a smaller Vortex scope, pounds and pounds of various powders, hundreds and hundreds of .30-caliber and .358-caliber bullets, custom-made forming and reloading dies by Hornady and Lee, almost two whole bricks of magnum large-rifle primers, a number of special little tools I'd had made for reloading non-standard cartridges and a bunch of other little doo-dads I cannot now remember. Three Dewey rods for barrels up there around twenty-five and some inches. I figger about $15,000 to $17,000 to a friend from high school. We met in July 1975, so we have a long history together. He suggested I become a trucker in January 1993; have been one since September 1993. Over 2.5 million miles, with an A+ safety record.
I just got tired of all the bullschumer required to go out there, set it all up, shoot abysmally, take it all down, drive home, carry it all in, put it all back into the respective places, clean the guns and wonder why I shot 2" groups from a scant 100 yards. I finally just said to hellsinki with it. I gave the stuff away and don't miss it.
My next thing is going to be a 6.5mm Creedmoor. The offerings by Bergara look pretty good to me. The Premier and Pro models have caught my eye. I'm lefthanded; I like that Bergara offers LH rifles for the rest of us. The Bergara actions copy the Remington M700 footprint, so there are a ton of stock options. Got my eye on an MDT CSS-XL-LGBTQ thing. Can't remember the exact designation; I'll worry about that when it comes time to buy the rifle and the chassis...
nksmfamjp
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Seems like a good post to sticky....this is hard info to find. I get that it is one man's experience, but JE is well respected here which means a lot.
I think this is where people struggle....when asking about contour, lands&grooves, SS vs Chromo, crown type, chambering, throating, cut vs button vs hammer, length, etc....guys always want to tie each item to a "does it shoot mo' better" question. The answer to mo' better is what produces the straightest, most accurately made bore shape that launches your cartridge/load perfectly at an accuracy node is mo' better....a lot of barrel options are related to "accuracy node" finding....I only know what I do. You have to figure out how you are going to guess a node design!
To the OP.....yes, both are mo' better. I think this was covered up a few posts, but maybe not as concisely as I would like.
Cut rifling does not put stress in the steel. You start with normalized steel, you cut, it stays normalized. My understanding is best steels for this are a bit harder easy machining steels. So, the bore is said to be a bit harder and longer accuracy life.
Button rifling...you start with normalized steel. You pull a button through it. That work puts stress in the steel. You stress relieve it through your method that doesn't warp the bore. It should be fully normalized again, but this cannot be proven or checked, except by shooting it. Any post rifling fluting, countouring, chambering can release stress causing a dimensional shift.....or you really could have a perfectly stress relieved barrel and no shift occurs. IMO, Shilen, Lilja, Hart, to name a few have their process down so this shift does not occur. The other factor is these steels are easy forming steels so the button works. Well, I read that this just happens to be a hair softer and may impact accuracy life.
Hammer Forged stresses the steel so much that it work hardens the steel very aggressively. This is great for machine gun barrels and some people have their process down such that reasonably good accuracy is possible, but in general, regardless of the stamp on it, these are not really match grade.
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