DartonJager
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2016
- Messages
- 976
Need some experienced based help in determining if my issue could be caused by my bench shooting form, bench shooting equipment, a combination of both, or should I look to my reloads the most likely suspect.
Was at my rifle range yesterday shooting a new rifle for the first time. A CVA Cascade in 450 Bushmaster.
It has a synthetic stock with rather aggressive checkering on the forearm. I was shooting strictly my own reloads.
It was topped with a Leupold VariX-II 4-12x40 I had cleaned and de-greased the scope bases, all screws and screw holes in the receiver and rings. Torqued all screws to factory recommended settings. Prior to shooting, I cleaned the barrel and receiver until the patches came out at least 95% clean. Using a dollar bill confirmed the barrel is 100% free floated and makes no contact what so ever with the stock.
I had something happen that in over 20 years of shooting high powered rifles from the bench I don't recall ever having happened before.
I got at least one flier in every three or five shot group and sometimes two if I shot 6 or more shots that were at least 1" to 1.5" out of the otherwise tight grouping. There was no consistency as to which shot it was. I had fliers for shots 1, 2, 3, or even one time shots 1 and 7 were fliers and shots 2-6 formed a .541" group. The fliers were in all directions and didn't fallow any district direction or pattern. Basically two to five shots shots would touch and one or two shots was a flier.
Range conditions were near perfect almost no perceivable wind temps in the mid 70's low humidity.
I was using a all aluminum tripod Bald eagle windage adjustable front rest with a heavy sand filled front bag designed for narrow forearms found on hunting rifle stocks adjustable for side tension on the forearm and a Protector small bunny ear rear bag also filled with heavy sand. All shots were at 100 yards.
I did remove both the two front and single rear sling studs. I never allowed the barrel to get more than mildly warm to the touch. The trigger had so slight of perceivable creep prior to breaking you would have to look for it to notice it and feel it was a non-factor. The trigger itself is claimed by the manufacturer to be set at 3lbs from the factory and as light as it seamed to me I would agree. Trigger had zero overtravel. I checked and confirmed the action screws were set at factory specked torque settings of 50 inch-pounds.
Only other possible factor is the barrel comes treaded to attach a muzzle brake or suppressor with a removable thread protector and I confirmed it was on tightly before during and after the range session. I also using my 5x magnifying jewelers loupe closely inspected the muzzle and muzzle cap and found no evidence of any damage or imperfections, before and after the range session, so I have no reason to suspect the muzzle to be causing any issues.
I should add I shot three different reloads. None gave a horrible group biggest was 2.12" 3-shot 100yrd group one was 1.87" one was 1.54". I had enough reloads left over of one loading I shot a second 100 yard group, seven shots in all. First shot hit low next five formed a .541" group shot 7 hit about .5" to the left of shot #1 7 shot group measured 1.29"
I got the scope zeroed so the rifle was able to hit a 3" target dot at 100 yards and began shooting my reloads. Including zeroing the scope I only took 20 shots and only test fired three of my reloads as I choose to stop shooting due to the number of flier I was having fgelt at best I was simply having a bad day at the range or worse something was happening to affect my shooting, either way I felt shooting more was a waste of my reloads.
Only reason I'm here asking is in all my years and doing load development for 338wm, 300wm, 300WSM 6.5x55, 35 Remington, 7mm STW, 308W, 7mm/08 even my inline muzzleloaders both smokeless and BP sub inlines I never recall any of them having fliers in every group I shot, yes I have the occasional flier, but 90% I know the cause and 95% of the of those fliers is caused by errors and inconsistencies in my shooting form. I do not have a conclusive cause or even likely suspect cause for the fliers.
One thing that comes to mind was I just couldn't seem to get settled in and comfortable behind the rifle. By that I mean I am a taller guy and I couldn't get my body low enough to the gun as it sat on the bench in the front rest and rear bag and I was forced to couch over more than I'm use to behind the rifle causing me to use rather awkward shooting form. I don't know if this would cause my fliers, possibly a shift in my groups POI but not sure it would cause fliers, but it did result in a change in my normal bench shooting form which I try to get low enough so as to crouch as little while shooting as I can.
Lastly as far as my reloads go, I was using new Starline brass, that I FL resized, uniformed the primer pockets, de-burred the FH, champhered the case mouth, polished the inside and outside of the case mouth with 0000/SW DID NOT bell the mouths my COAL was 2.300", put a minimal crimp on them using a Lee FCD. Using my RCBS 1010 BB scale weighed every charge of powder, double checked every fifth with my back up 1010. Used CCI 450 small rifle magnum primers. Used 245 grain .452" Hornady Interlocks. I used Hornady Custom Grade 4 die set and a Hornady Custom seating die setup NOT to crimp.
Also is there such a thing as seating you bullets to shallow? My COAL is 2.300 +/- 0.002" which equates to about .190" of bullet in the case. I choose a COAL of 2.300 based on wanting to start long and if I have to reduce COAL. I did take every reload and load them in the rifles DM and cycle them all and they all loaded and ejected with no issues at all. I did make a point to put three the two then one loaded rounds in the mag and cycle it. I did clean my new Hornady Custom grade 4 die set using a sonic vibratory cleaner prior to use.
I didn't bring my chronograph as I usually don't start using my chronograph until I find a promising load or two and start to fine tune the load. I will bring it for the next range trip.
I feel it is worth adding this is the first time I have reloaded for a rifle climber that uses a straight walled rifle case, but on the advice of those that have vastly more experience than I, I did not bell the case mouth. I paid very close attention and inspected every loaded round to see if I was shaving off any copper as I seated the bullets and I never saw any copper shavings.
To sum things up, I am confident it wasn't the scope, it wasn't the range conditions, I have no reason yet to suspect the rifle but I don't know exactly what to check for this rifle to see of it could be causing my problem. Admittedly I do not know enough about reloading for the 450 Bushmaster or reloading for straight walled rifle cases to know of it could be my reloads. Unless someone can shine a light on some other likely cause, that leaves myself and my shooting form or my bench equipment as the most likely suspects.
Thoughts and suggestions much appreciated.
Was at my rifle range yesterday shooting a new rifle for the first time. A CVA Cascade in 450 Bushmaster.
It has a synthetic stock with rather aggressive checkering on the forearm. I was shooting strictly my own reloads.
It was topped with a Leupold VariX-II 4-12x40 I had cleaned and de-greased the scope bases, all screws and screw holes in the receiver and rings. Torqued all screws to factory recommended settings. Prior to shooting, I cleaned the barrel and receiver until the patches came out at least 95% clean. Using a dollar bill confirmed the barrel is 100% free floated and makes no contact what so ever with the stock.
I had something happen that in over 20 years of shooting high powered rifles from the bench I don't recall ever having happened before.
I got at least one flier in every three or five shot group and sometimes two if I shot 6 or more shots that were at least 1" to 1.5" out of the otherwise tight grouping. There was no consistency as to which shot it was. I had fliers for shots 1, 2, 3, or even one time shots 1 and 7 were fliers and shots 2-6 formed a .541" group. The fliers were in all directions and didn't fallow any district direction or pattern. Basically two to five shots shots would touch and one or two shots was a flier.
Range conditions were near perfect almost no perceivable wind temps in the mid 70's low humidity.
I was using a all aluminum tripod Bald eagle windage adjustable front rest with a heavy sand filled front bag designed for narrow forearms found on hunting rifle stocks adjustable for side tension on the forearm and a Protector small bunny ear rear bag also filled with heavy sand. All shots were at 100 yards.
I did remove both the two front and single rear sling studs. I never allowed the barrel to get more than mildly warm to the touch. The trigger had so slight of perceivable creep prior to breaking you would have to look for it to notice it and feel it was a non-factor. The trigger itself is claimed by the manufacturer to be set at 3lbs from the factory and as light as it seamed to me I would agree. Trigger had zero overtravel. I checked and confirmed the action screws were set at factory specked torque settings of 50 inch-pounds.
Only other possible factor is the barrel comes treaded to attach a muzzle brake or suppressor with a removable thread protector and I confirmed it was on tightly before during and after the range session. I also using my 5x magnifying jewelers loupe closely inspected the muzzle and muzzle cap and found no evidence of any damage or imperfections, before and after the range session, so I have no reason to suspect the muzzle to be causing any issues.
I should add I shot three different reloads. None gave a horrible group biggest was 2.12" 3-shot 100yrd group one was 1.87" one was 1.54". I had enough reloads left over of one loading I shot a second 100 yard group, seven shots in all. First shot hit low next five formed a .541" group shot 7 hit about .5" to the left of shot #1 7 shot group measured 1.29"
I got the scope zeroed so the rifle was able to hit a 3" target dot at 100 yards and began shooting my reloads. Including zeroing the scope I only took 20 shots and only test fired three of my reloads as I choose to stop shooting due to the number of flier I was having fgelt at best I was simply having a bad day at the range or worse something was happening to affect my shooting, either way I felt shooting more was a waste of my reloads.
Only reason I'm here asking is in all my years and doing load development for 338wm, 300wm, 300WSM 6.5x55, 35 Remington, 7mm STW, 308W, 7mm/08 even my inline muzzleloaders both smokeless and BP sub inlines I never recall any of them having fliers in every group I shot, yes I have the occasional flier, but 90% I know the cause and 95% of the of those fliers is caused by errors and inconsistencies in my shooting form. I do not have a conclusive cause or even likely suspect cause for the fliers.
One thing that comes to mind was I just couldn't seem to get settled in and comfortable behind the rifle. By that I mean I am a taller guy and I couldn't get my body low enough to the gun as it sat on the bench in the front rest and rear bag and I was forced to couch over more than I'm use to behind the rifle causing me to use rather awkward shooting form. I don't know if this would cause my fliers, possibly a shift in my groups POI but not sure it would cause fliers, but it did result in a change in my normal bench shooting form which I try to get low enough so as to crouch as little while shooting as I can.
Lastly as far as my reloads go, I was using new Starline brass, that I FL resized, uniformed the primer pockets, de-burred the FH, champhered the case mouth, polished the inside and outside of the case mouth with 0000/SW DID NOT bell the mouths my COAL was 2.300", put a minimal crimp on them using a Lee FCD. Using my RCBS 1010 BB scale weighed every charge of powder, double checked every fifth with my back up 1010. Used CCI 450 small rifle magnum primers. Used 245 grain .452" Hornady Interlocks. I used Hornady Custom Grade 4 die set and a Hornady Custom seating die setup NOT to crimp.
Also is there such a thing as seating you bullets to shallow? My COAL is 2.300 +/- 0.002" which equates to about .190" of bullet in the case. I choose a COAL of 2.300 based on wanting to start long and if I have to reduce COAL. I did take every reload and load them in the rifles DM and cycle them all and they all loaded and ejected with no issues at all. I did make a point to put three the two then one loaded rounds in the mag and cycle it. I did clean my new Hornady Custom grade 4 die set using a sonic vibratory cleaner prior to use.
I didn't bring my chronograph as I usually don't start using my chronograph until I find a promising load or two and start to fine tune the load. I will bring it for the next range trip.
I feel it is worth adding this is the first time I have reloaded for a rifle climber that uses a straight walled rifle case, but on the advice of those that have vastly more experience than I, I did not bell the case mouth. I paid very close attention and inspected every loaded round to see if I was shaving off any copper as I seated the bullets and I never saw any copper shavings.
To sum things up, I am confident it wasn't the scope, it wasn't the range conditions, I have no reason yet to suspect the rifle but I don't know exactly what to check for this rifle to see of it could be causing my problem. Admittedly I do not know enough about reloading for the 450 Bushmaster or reloading for straight walled rifle cases to know of it could be my reloads. Unless someone can shine a light on some other likely cause, that leaves myself and my shooting form or my bench equipment as the most likely suspects.
Thoughts and suggestions much appreciated.
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