Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

Discussion in 'Equipment Discussions' started by ricka0, Nov 29, 2004.

  1. ricka0

    ricka0 Well-Known Member

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    I'm thinking of getting a new 300 RUM, sending it straight to Shilen where they will install their best heavy SS tube with a 1:15 twist and a very tight throat using my dummy 125gr BT cartridge. It won't even shoot 150's unless I seat the BT very deep. They check the action for squareness and fix any problems - only $724 + $30 S&H - gun is a bit less. I'd also have Kirby add a Holland QD and trigger job.

    I'll top it off with a nice scope. Gun only, it's less than $1800 and I've got a bran spanking new spare barrel for my other 300 RUM.

    Can anyone come up with a flatter / more accurate deer/antelope gun for less? WIth the Holland QD and dimunitive 125gr BT, it shouldn't kick any more than my 270 WSM.
     
  2. kac1345

    kac1345 Well-Known Member

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    Well Hell I'll bite on this one ..no else seems to be? your saying ultimate long range? I would say only IMHO that you may be going in the wrong way in a sense ...it really all depends on what your callin long rang? because yeah your gunna push a 125BT out ther pretty good and with shere horsepower but what kind of energy are you going to have left to impact the critter with? I don't know maybe I'm way off here but I personaly consider anything 1k and beyond long range ..don't get me wrong 600-700 is long range too but there are a ton of carts that will effectivly take critters at that range..so thats why I consider (long range) 1k and betond because it does take a special formula to get there with enough authority, to make accurate clean kills, and taking wind and all other of mother natures conditions on any givin day into factor here I would say maybe your looking at a 800-1000 gun but I would reallly be thinking about launching a 125 at 1k in the wind ect at a critter...I would say just go the other way ...man your going to probably range it anyways..well heck you would have too at that range so the crittter won't know your there ...or shouldn't! so a big 300 grainer pushing close to 3k or a little over Range it dope it and dump it! simple. it would be cool to have a lazer like that thing would be probably to 600-700 yds but man barrel life comes into play here too that thig is gunna roast yor Sh%t in NO! time. like I said I'm just speakin my mind so no offenes..just thought I would through it out there and see what we got? [​IMG] it's just a simple fact High B.C. will always win on windy days uhh well maybe not so simple...but I think it is lol! [​IMG]
     
  3. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    b1g_b0re,

    Well, I quess I have to make a comment about this silliness!!! [​IMG]

    Personally I think you should just have me build you a 257 Allen Magnum.

    Go ahead and get that 300 RUM rifle and send it to me. I will fit it with a 30" #6 contour Lilja(not heavy at all, just plenty for fine groups and still able to be packed all day). Fully Accurize the action, fit a Holland Comp Recoil Lug to it and bed the action to the stock.

    Loaded with the 130 gr Bonded Core FBHP(b.c. of .550, s.d. of .281) this would not only be a flatter shooting rifle out to 800 yards but it would also be a much better on game performer when used on larger deer.

    Lets look at the numbers.

    I do not know what barrel length you were looking at with Shilen but I will give you a full 4000 fps with the 125 gr BT out of the 300 RUM. I feel this is a realistic velocity depending on barrel length used.

    Here are the specs with this bullet with a scope hight of 2" above the line of the bore and zeroed at 400 yards.

    100 yards---3656fps---+3.0"----0.6" drift
    200---------3328------+5.4"----2.6"
    300---------3023------+4.6"----6.1"
    400---------2738-------0.0"----11.3"
    500---------2472----- -9.3"----18.5"
    600---------2222----- -24.2"---27.8"
    700---------1986----- -46.2"---39.8"
    800---------1766----- -77.1"---54.8"

    Not bad at all for a light bullet.

    Lets compare it to teh 257 Allen Magnum with the 130 gr Wildcat loaded to 3700 fps in the 30" 3 groove Lilja:

    100 yards---3493 fps---+3.2"----0.4" drift
    200---------3289-------+5.4"----1.8"
    300---------3094-------+4.5"----4.1"
    400---------2908--------0.0"----7.5"
    500---------2729------ -8.7"----12.0"
    600---------2558------ -22.0"---17.7"
    700---------2393------ -40.7"---24.8"
    800---------2236------ -65.4"---33.4"

    So lets see, bothhave the same mid range trajectory of around +5.4" in the 220 yard range. At 500 yards the big 25 has a .6" less drop, at 600 it is 2.2" flatter, at 700 yards it is around 5.5" flatter and at 800 yards it is 8.5" flatter.

    The 257 AM is flatter shooting out to 800 yards and it just gets more advantage past that but I will admit it is not by a dramatic amount.

    BUT!!

    Lets look at wind drift.

    At 400 yards the 25 has about 34% less drift them the 300(7.5" vs 11.3").

    At 500 yards it has 36% less drift(12.0" vs 18.5")

    At 600 yards it has a 37% edge(17.7" vs 27.8")

    At 700 yards it is 38% less wind drift(24.8 vs 39.8)

    and at 800 yards it is 39% less(33.4 vs 54.8)

    Now one might argue that the 300 will have more energy on target with the faster bullet. That is true out until about 150 yards where the 300 RUM has 3379 ft/lbs compared to the 3317 ft/lbs for the 257 AM.

    At the 400 yard zero, the energy numbers are 2441 ft lbs for the 25 and 2081 ft/lbs for the big 300

    At 800 yards we are looking at 1443 ft/lbs for the big 25 and 866 ft/lbs for the 300 RUM.

    In velocity the big 25 catches the hyper fast 300 RUM before 250 yards and at 400 yards the 25 has 2908 fps compared to 2738 fps for the RUM.

    At 800 yards it is 2236 fps for the 25 compared to 1766 fps for the 300.

    More importantly for long range shooting. The time of flight out to 800 yards is nearly a ful tenth of a second less then with the 300.

    Now I can't say I will beat the price you have for this package from Shilen but I will say that is what I charge for one of my complete rifles using a 30" Lilja barrel with either an H-S Precision or a Boyds Laminated wood stock, either thumbhole or classic sporter style.

    Brake would be a bit extra.

    Lets talk about recoil. The 300 RUM is a pussy cat with a Holland QD installed. Recoils about like a 270 Win I would say from the many I have fitted and range tested afterward.

    The 257 AM in a 9 lb rifle will recoil about like that of a 243 at the most. My 257 STW built on this same rifle platform allow me to see the bullet impact at any range which is a really cool thing if you have never witnessed this on big game.

    Accuracy wise, I do not know what Shilen says their rifles will shoot, I am sure it is 1/2 moa or around there. I will say my Extreme sporters will hold under 1/2 moa. The 257 STW holds the 130 gr Wildcats into the .3's at 100 yards and in the 1 1/2" range at 500 yards which I would think would be on par with a heavy barreled Shilen Job.

    Plus on game performance would be dramatically better with the bonded core bigh B.C. bullet.

    Well, just took my shot at the challange laid down. These numbers are all projections but I feel very confident on teh ability of this round to reach these performance levels. Come the middle od Jan. rifles will be on the range being tested for real world data.

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  4. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    Kirby

    You're comparing a very low drag bullet from a 257 to a very high drag bullet from a 30.

    The numbers are obviously going to lean toward the 257 by a wide margin in that case.

    Comparing the 257 to a 30 cal 210 JLK running 3200 fps = 2130 fps at 800 yards, 2110 FPE, -96" path, and 30" of drift in 10 mph wind. Also having the advantage of hitting them with larger frontal area.
     
  5. kac1345

    kac1345 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah Kirby ?? heck you know I want one of your allen mags really bad and I"m just waiting for all the R&D to be done ...that was not even a fair comparison ..even! the new allen mags youir leaning towards Higher! B.C. Bullets Low drag... I would have to compare this silly 300 RUM shooting a week 125 grait BT close to the .257 STW...and we all know that is why the new allen mags have come on the scene ! more downrange eneergy better BC's actually just a plain better use of all, that powder..I mean your spitting out 100 grain BT's out of the .257 STW at over 4k or right at it .....and the .257 Allen mag I don't recall right off the top of my head but it was slower but WAY!!! more efficient and would be a Solid LONG!!! Range Gun it far exceded the .257 STW's Performance. Not trying to call anybody on anything but this topic seems very black and white to me ...maybe I'm just silly? [​IMG]

    I mean I think there is a reason they call the big .338's the big dogs?? Not because the shoot big ass slugs! thery are very effiecent and can produce velocties that can obtain SUPER HIGH B.C.'s Am I wrong? am I Silly?

    [ 12-01-2004: Message edited by: Long Range Demon TacKac ]
     
  6. RBrowning

    RBrowning Well-Known Member

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    Brent, LRDT,
    I think that the reason Kirby compared the 130 gr 25 cal to the 125 grain 30 cal is to make the point that if you want a light bullet you are better to go to a small diameter to get it. He didn't choose the 125 grain,30 cal bullet out of the blue, it was what was chosen in the original post.

    B1g_b0re asked "Can anyone come up with a flatter / more accurate deer/antelope gun for less? WIth the Holland QD and dimunitive 125gr BT, it shouldn't kick any more than my 270 WSM." and Kirby believes he has a better option. While b1g_b0re used the the clasic "milk bottle full of powder with an asprin on top" approach, he didn't take into account the damnable effects of drag, therfore he used a light for caliber bullet instead of the more aerodynamic heavy for caliber bullets. If he had necked his case down to a 25 he would have been pretty close to what Roy Weatherby did in 50 years ago. It worked then and it still works today.
     
  7. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Brent,

    I totally agree with your comments, a 300 Rum firign a 125 gr pill at 4000 fps is totally different then a 300 RUM driving a 210 gr JLK to 3200 fps. At long range the heavy is tops by a LONG margin.

    But, I would also like to state that Richard Graves and I are designing these round to compete directly with the big 300's and 338 rounds by providing flatter trajectories and less wind drift.

    Richard has designed a 145 gr ULD rebated Boattail for my 257 AM with a B.C. from prelim tests at .738!!!

    Now the 257 AM should be able to hit 3350 to 3450 fps with this bullet out of the 30" barreled rifles they will be chambered in.

    How does the 300 RUM with the 210 gr JLK at 3200 fps compare to this load?

    Sure I give you the frontal area issue, no arguement here, I also give you the energy factor, but these are designed for deer and pronghorn.

    The 145 gr ULD in 257 has a B.C. higher then even the 240 gr SMK which is around the .720 range.

    What kind of round would it take to match the 3400 fps velocity of the 257 AM with that big 240 gr SMK. It would have to be much larger then the 30-378 in a 30" barrel thats for sure.

    Even against the mighty 338 rounds with the 300 gr SMK with its .790 to .800 B.C.

    The velocity advantage of the 257 AM will perfrom very solidly against these monsters as even my 34.5" barreled 338 Kahn will only hit 3100 fps with the 300 gr SMK, compared again to 3400 fps for the 257 AM.

    Please remember that I designed my rounds to be used in 9 to 9.5 lb big game rifles and designed to offer the deer and pronghorn hunter ligitimate 500-600 yard range without the need for major hold adjustment. Also they must produce minimal recoil in this weight rifle.

    I just wanted to design a round that everyone would be able to shoot well and these three smaller caliber rounds using the latest in bullet technology will do that. To what degee I will have to wait and see how they perform in the real world, not on paper.

    I also agree that for extreme range shooting, +1000 yards, the big 300's and 338s are king. I may change my mind on that when I get my 270 AM running in a heavy rifle driving the 169.5 gr ULDs to 3350 fps with their .750 B.C. but that has yet to be proven.

    Good Shooting!!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  8. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    LRDT,

    You know there is an AM with your name on it, jsut give me the word!! [​IMG] [​IMG]

    First ones to get them build get to help me test all the awsome new bullets from Wildcat bullets!!!

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  9. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    RBrowning,

    You nailed it on the head my friend!!

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  10. STL_Shooter

    STL_Shooter Well-Known Member

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    I'm curious as to exactly which powder, with acceptable temperature sensitivity, in a barrel throated to allow seating to the lands, with decent brass life, is going to be used to push a 145g bullet 3400-3450 out of that skinny tube?

    I know of some hot, hot long-barreled 6.5 WSMs that'll push a 123g Scenar 3400 with Retumbo, but'd never even come close with the 140 grainers.

    In the real world, performance is measured by more than just velocity - it's safe pressures, decent brass life, stable loads at a range of temperatures...

    So, the real-world performance of these cartridges will indeed be interesting...

    b1g_b0re, lose the lightweight bullets and try a 190 to 220 grain bullet with high ballistic coefficient in that 300 RUM. If you can shoot it accurately - you'll have a top-notch long range slayer.
     
  11. TOM H

    TOM H Well-Known Member

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    Long Range DT, Only thing going against you is the bullets don't have high enought BC and limited suppliers. Pac-Nor, Shilen were the the first to come up with 1/15 and 1/18 twist for the 30 cal shooter HB shooters. I've got a shilen 1/15 on a 30x44 and pac-nors on 30x47. The 30x44 will shoot 125gr,135gr and 118gr if made on the long jackets. I've never fired anything heavier than 135gr so cann't comment. I don't always agree with Kirby's thinking on some matter but he is headed in the right direction with his new mag project simply put he is getting the bullets to match the caliber and he is staying with standard barrel twist and these will be hunting rifles not varmit. I know you are looking at a higher velocity than I shot with the 30x44,30x47 but you would not believe the drift in those bullets in the wind you could be outshot by a 308 with 150gr bullets. The only reason the 1/15 thru 1/18 twist barrel came along was could shot a lighter bullet in one of the short 308 cases and not get recoil beat up like shooting a 308 and it was the HB guys who pushed for them. I say you may want velocity in the 4000fps range and being those 125gr are on a short jacket your going to over case capacity. When those fast twist barrel first came out was only acouple making light bullets now have anywhere from 112gr to 135gr. seems like the bullets are always last to follow. As to comparing your to Kirbys 25 cal I'd honestly say with what you have said so far that your barrel may not last past load testing that throat will wash out pretty quick. If you look at the 22cal bullet now have some 100gr LVD bullets there is nothing going toward the lighter bullets you can get a longer jacket and more bearing suface and say with a 112gr 30 cal by the time get bullet dia and ojive not much left for a bearing surface maybe if they did something more with a plastic tip. Just my .02 worth.
     
  12. kac1345

    kac1345 Well-Known Member

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    No A agree kirby's idea on the new Am's and thanks Kirby I"ll be watching ...I just had some really bad stuff happen to me over the weekend that I need to deal with before I go building another rifle heck I have one at GAP right now being built...I have to pay the rest on ...I rolled my wifes truck at the range sat hit the only damn tree in 2 miles if I hadn't it would have been a 2000yd death roll to the bottom no doubt!
    [​IMG] anyways still waiting on the AAA guy to call and no fixxe or yes we can! [​IMG] anyways I just thought IMHO that the whole big jug of powder with the asprin on top was a silly thing .....Now the AM's thats why I said thats not a even comparison those things are a whole different beast!! and a beast it will be no doubt!and I will have one by the end of the year providing R&D works out for ya... hell even if I have to sell my .338LM it would be portable here my Lapua is not bad only weighs in at 15.7 thats with no bipod [​IMG] We will see..like I said before wasn't trying to call anybody on anything ...I know your for real!!! and a helluva generous guy as well!
    Thanks Keith [​IMG]
     
  13. speedbump

    speedbump Well-Known Member

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    Ya'll might wanna look at the ballistics of a 7mmRUM fired from a 30" tube. A 176gr Cauterucio with a BC of .740 running just under 3,400fps. A 156gr scooting along even faster with a BC of .650 or so.

    Do the numbers - they're pretty good. [​IMG]
     
  14. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    STL,

    Please keep in mind my performance goals for my AM rounds are nothing remotely similiar to a Comp rifle or Varmint rifle where throat life is a premium.

    These are Big Game rifles. They are designed to be used in a way that an experienced handloader can find a top quality load in far less then 100 yards and use the rifle big game hunting where taking a few shots at game a year should be an exciting season.

    The 257 STW rifles I have built have been lasting for 1000-1200 rounds of accurate barrel life before they are either ready to be set back or replaced with a fresh barrel.

    TO answer your question on powders that will be used, for the lighter to medium weight bullets in the 257 and 6.5 AM and all the bullets in the 270 AM, Retumbo will be the powder of choice. It is as temp stable as any powder out there and should be a great ballance of burn rate to bore capacity for the lighter weight 257 and 6.5 AM bullets as well as all the 270 AM loads.

    For the heavies in 257 and 6.5mm, H-50BMG will be getting the go ahead. Again this powder is very stable over a wide range of temps.

    The 257 AM and 6.5mm AM have roughly the same case capacity to bore volume ratio as the 30-378. Anyone see a real problem with that round in powder selection?

    I assure you my loads will produce brass life in the 5 to 6 firings range. Again, these are big game rifles, this is more then enough case life for that use, hell a 100 brass should last a lifetime of big game hunting.

    The 6.5mm WSM is not even remotely in the same class as the AM rounds. The AM's are more round then has been used in these calibers. Combining that with the heavy for caliber bullets from Wildcat Bullets, this is the reason these rounds will work where other big cased rounds on small bores have not.

    They tried to force light bullets to hyper velocities for long range performance. The only way to get consistant long range performance is with high velocity but just as important high B.C. and for on game performance, high S.D.

    The AM rounds will have a powder capacity roughly 30 gr larger then the WSM rounds. The only way this large of a case capacity will work is to use non conventional bullet weights which we are doing.

    In the 257 AM, I would say 130 gr bullets are as light as I will go in my testing. One could use 115 to 120 gr pill with good results but the 130 is a good minimum in my mind.

    The 257 STW gets pretty finicky with 100 gr bullets and the 257 AM would be the same way with 115 gr pills. Velocity will basically be the same with the 100 gr bullet in the STW and the 115 in the AM.

    All the things you have mentioned are real problems and Richard Graves and I have taken alot of time and research to come up with what we are releasing.

    Will they perform exactly how I am telling it now, I hope so and believe they will. No matter what though, if my rounds will not reach my performance goals within safe pressures, I will never use damgerous pressures just to reach a velocity for a selling point.

    There is no need with the level of performance these rounds will offer, even if they miss my goals by a small margin, they will still be vastly superior to any 257 , 6.5 and 277 round offered now for hunting deer and pronghorn out to 600 yards out of a sporter weight rifle.

    I also had alot of guys tell me that the #6 contoured barrels would not offer enough accuracy in the 257 STW class rounds for shooting out to 500 yards. Well, after they were built and tested and proven to produce groups in the 1 1/4" range at 500 yards, those non believers came around a bit even though some needed to see it in person to believe it.

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)